Author Topic: JaxPort Dredging Fiasco?  (Read 15846 times)

acme54321

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Re: JaxPort Dredging Fiasco?
« Reply #30 on: May 26, 2021, 09:17:45 AM »
Comparing the port to the Skyway?  C'mon man!

Read my post again. I'm comparing the dredging project (not the entire Port) to the Skyway....  and only then if we spend hundreds of millions to deepen it and the ships we deepened it for don't show up in the expected numbers.  If that happens, then yes, it would mirror the Skyway story.  We shall see soon enough...

LOL.  So deepening the port is equivalent to spending hundreds of millions to convert the skyway to an elevated road for little unmanned cars?  OK.

jaxlongtimer

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Re: JaxPort Dredging Fiasco?
« Reply #31 on: May 26, 2021, 12:25:42 PM »
Comparing the port to the Skyway?  C'mon man!

Read my post again. I'm comparing the dredging project (not the entire Port) to the Skyway....  and only then if we spend hundreds of millions to deepen it and the ships we deepened it for don't show up in the expected numbers.  If that happens, then yes, it would mirror the Skyway story.  We shall see soon enough...

LOL.  So deepening the port is equivalent to spending hundreds of millions to convert the skyway to an elevated road for little unmanned cars?  OK.

Again, that is not what I said.  I will try to spell it out for you:  The original Skyway was built based on studies that said if they build it people will use it a lot.  Never happened.  The dredging was done because people said large ships will use it a lot.  If that fails to happen, then the Skyway will be a perfect analogy to the dredging.

If you still don't get it, please consider that your support for the dredging may be precluding your ability to see things from another perspective.  If so, I can't assist any further.

bl8jaxnative

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Re: JaxPort Dredging Fiasco?
« Reply #32 on: May 26, 2021, 04:13:09 PM »
No one uses the skyway.


On the other hand, the port is one of the larger in the country.  Does 5 times more than Tampa.  Is the 2nd busiest auto port in the nation.

1/3 of our region's GDP - our lives - is created thanks to the port.

Like the no one that rides the Skyway, absolutely bupkiss of GDP is driven by The Skyway.



When someone sees a comparison between something worthless with something that's got so much value if you removed it, you'd tear the region apart......... well, one is maybe being a bit too stubborn and missing the plot.   

No one, not even JTA, is willing to die on skyway mountain. 

vicupstate

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Re: JaxPort Dredging Fiasco?
« Reply #33 on: May 26, 2021, 04:23:32 PM »
Quote
On the other hand, the port is one of the larger in the country.  Does 5 times more than Tampa.  Is the 2nd busiest auto port in the nation.

1/3 of our region's GDP - our lives - is created thanks to the port.

But it is ALREADY in that position WITHOUT the dredging. What does the dredging ADD or what loss does it prevent?
"The problem with quotes on the internet is you can never be certain they're authentic." - Abraham Lincoln

jaxlongtimer

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Re: JaxPort Dredging Fiasco?
« Reply #34 on: May 26, 2021, 04:25:57 PM »
When someone sees a comparison between something worthless with something that's got so much value if you removed it, you'd tear the region apart......... well, one is maybe being a bit too stubborn and missing the plot.   

I don't know what is so hard to see here.  I am not talking about the Port, just the incremental dredging.  The dredging to 47 feet was for the sole purpose of accommodating Panamax ships.  If they don't show up after the dredging, the several hundred million dollars spent to increase the depth for those ships and the ancillary negative impacts on the river will be for naught.  That would mimic our "investment" in the Skyway.
« Last Edit: May 26, 2021, 06:27:08 PM by jaxlongtimer »

acme54321

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Re: JaxPort Dredging Fiasco?
« Reply #35 on: May 26, 2021, 06:07:26 PM »
Comparing the port to the Skyway?  C'mon man!

Read my post again. I'm comparing the dredging project (not the entire Port) to the Skyway....  and only then if we spend hundreds of millions to deepen it and the ships we deepened it for don't show up in the expected numbers.  If that happens, then yes, it would mirror the Skyway story.  We shall see soon enough...

LOL.  So deepening the port is equivalent to spending hundreds of millions to convert the skyway to an elevated road for little unmanned cars?  OK.

Again, that is not what I said.  I will try to spell it out for you:  The original Skyway was built based on studies that said if they build it people will use it a lot.  Never happened.  The dredging was done because people said large ships will use it a lot.  If that fails to happen, then the Skyway will be a perfect analogy to the dredging.

If you still don't get it, please consider that your support for the dredging may be precluding your ability to see things from another perspective.  If so, I can't assist any further.

I get what you are saying, I just don't agree that the anything to do with the Skyway is a good comparison to keeping one of our city's main economic drivers competitive.

BridgeTroll

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Re: JaxPort Dredging Fiasco?
« Reply #36 on: May 27, 2021, 06:52:11 AM »
And while we wring our hands...

https://www.live5news.com/2021/05/26/huge-ship-arrives-port-savannah/

Looks like... "If you build it... they will come..."
In a boat at sea one of the men began to bore a hole in the bottom of the boat. On being remonstrating with, he answered, "I am only boring under my own seat." "Yes," said his companions, "but when the sea rushes in we shall all be drowned with you."

bl8jaxnative

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Re: JaxPort Dredging Fiasco?
« Reply #37 on: June 11, 2021, 11:43:19 AM »
In the very limited terms, what longtimer is saying as "they did a study that projected these numbers and it didn't happen" part is valid.  It's a thing.  It's true.

But it's not important nor insightful.   No one in JAX took transit before the skyway, there was nothing like it in the city and really nothing much in the nation.   It was a pure guess.

IN the case of Jacksonville and it's ports, the city has existed from day #1 because of shipping and ports.  It's always been here and been a big, big part of Jacksonville. 

Dedreging is an incremental change.    Poeple mover was a desperate hail mary.

Florida Power And Light

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Re: JaxPort Dredging Fiasco?
« Reply #38 on: June 13, 2021, 08:41:19 PM »
Well, looking down from the power lines..... in general “ Fiasco” mode.....
Fishermen are looking forward to ...... possibly......either a Good Thang or a Bad Thang.......newly constructed River Habitat Deep Holes. Deeper water. How will the “ Fishery” ‘ Fair’ ?
Will the Big Redfish incline towards the new Deep? ( I would).
A good study for Dr. Quinton White .... River Keeper.....et al.
After all, now the study is only about the result, rather than conceived change of course.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2021, 08:44:40 PM by Florida Power And Light »

jaxlongtimer

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Re: JaxPort Dredging Fiasco?
« Reply #39 on: June 28, 2021, 11:10:37 AM »
TraPac scaling back due to ships not clearing power lines and the Dames Point Bridge at the port.  And, now add not having the equipment to handle larger ships.  So much for "thinking ahead."  Dredging clearly will not be enough.

https://www.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/news/2021/06/28/trapac-jacksonville-terminal-to-close-on-fridays.html?utm_source=st&utm_medium=en&utm_campaign=me&utm_content=ja&ana=e_ja_me&j=24289452&senddate=2021-06-28
Quote
TraPac — Jacksonville's first Asian container terminal — scales back service

....Now, TraPac has announced that its facility will be closed on Fridays “due to reduced volume in Jacksonville.” A TraPac official confirmed to the Business Journal that the change in service began June 19.

...The reason: The flow of cargo into TraPac has fallen: In June, a group of shippers known as THE Alliance cut one of two ships that had called at the terminal, a side effect of the shippers changing the size of vessels they have in service on the route....

The larger ships that would otherwise call at TraPac are unable to get there because of transmission lines over the river and the Dames Point Bridge both limiting how tall ships can be, the depths of the shipping channel precluding large, fully loaded ships from entering and the terminal having equipment that cannot efficiently deal with the larger shipping vessels that have become more common, a port spokeswoman said.

In 2014, the largest ships expected to call at Jaxport were expected to carry the equivalent of 9,000 containers

But ships have continued to get bigger: The widening of the Panama Canal — which began in 2007 — brought into service ships carrying 10,000 to 14,000 containers, while ships transiting the Suez Canal carry up to 20,000 containers.

The port authority has been pushing to get JEA to raise the power lines over the river, saying it is necessary to fully benefit from the multimillion-dollar deepening project....

« Last Edit: June 28, 2021, 11:13:14 AM by jaxlongtimer »

bl8jaxnative

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Re: JaxPort Dredging Fiasco?
« Reply #40 on: June 29, 2021, 10:36:17 AM »
No one in the business ever said dredging was going to be enough.   

Charles Hunter

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Re: JaxPort Dredging Fiasco?
« Reply #41 on: June 29, 2021, 01:01:13 PM »
Didn't earlier posts point out that the cost of raising the power lines wasn't included in the USACOE calculation of cost/benefit factors?
If it was known that this was an essential public cost, shouldn't it have been included? Why wasn't it?

thelakelander

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Re: JaxPort Dredging Fiasco?
« Reply #42 on: June 29, 2021, 01:24:33 PM »
^Because the plan was always to nickel and dime the costs of what was needed. If the full cost was known upfront, approval and public acceptance would have been more difficult to obtain.
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jaxlongtimer

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Re: JaxPort Dredging Fiasco?
« Reply #43 on: June 29, 2021, 03:21:28 PM »
No one in the business ever said dredging was going to be enough.

They certainly implied it if they didn't explicitly say it given that they didn't address the impact of the bridge and power line heights and any shortcomings of equipment on the docks as part of the dredging approval process.  Surely, some one/people at the Port knew these issues would have to be eventually addressed to extract the full value of the dredging going back to the very start of bringing up this project. 

^Because the plan was always to nickel and dime the costs of what was needed. If the full cost was known upfront, approval and public acceptance would have been more difficult to obtain.

Right, bait and switch.  Or low ball, get the commitment and then hold the taxpayer hostage as they can't afford to undermine the value of what has already been spent when all the real costs become apparent.

We saw this same "business model" with the stadium and the courthouse.  JEA is experiencing it with the nuclear reactors in Georgia.  A favorite trick of contractors and politicians/agency heads.  Yet, elected officials fall for it over and over, just like Charlie Brown trying to kick Lucy's football.  Look for it again on the U2C project.
« Last Edit: June 29, 2021, 06:16:44 PM by jaxlongtimer »

jcjohnpaint

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Re: JaxPort Dredging Fiasco?
« Reply #44 on: June 29, 2021, 05:01:17 PM »
He U2C will be the grand finale ;)