Author Topic: JaxPort Dredging Fiasco?  (Read 14674 times)

bl8jaxnative

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Re: JaxPort Dredging Fiasco?
« Reply #15 on: May 14, 2021, 12:14:42 PM »

Total bs to get uppity over dredging's contributions.   If you don't want to get flooded, don't build where Jacksonville is located. 
It's built at sea level and, especially the core, drained swamp and flat as hell.   It would be have all the same problems and vulnerabilities regardless of dredging.


Even better --> Instead of pissing away 1/2 a BILLION on robo buses that can't see black people ( probably why they're running them in Riverside and not Grand Am, eh? ).... how about we put that into a seawall?

fieldafm

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Re: JaxPort Dredging Fiasco?
« Reply #16 on: May 14, 2021, 01:10:26 PM »

Total bs to get uppity over dredging's contributions.   If you don't want to get flooded, don't build where Jacksonville is located. 
It's built at sea level and, especially the core, drained swamp and flat as hell.   It would be have all the same problems and vulnerabilities regardless of dredging.


Even better --> Instead of pissing away 1/2 a BILLION on robo buses that can't see black people ( probably why they're running them in Riverside and not Grand Am, eh? ).... how about we put that into a seawall?

If you want to stick your head in the sand about how dredging has drastically affected the river flow over the past several decades.... there are many sandbars newly created on Browns Creek from the latest dredging efforts... that go along with sandbars stretching from Clapboard Creek to as far down as Mill Cove from previous dredging efforts... in which you can choose from.

thelakelander

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Re: JaxPort Dredging Fiasco?
« Reply #17 on: May 14, 2021, 01:17:33 PM »
Yeah, it's been well covered locally in the past about how the dredging has negatively impacted the fishing industry around Mill Cove.
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acme54321

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Re: JaxPort Dredging Fiasco?
« Reply #18 on: May 14, 2021, 02:37:05 PM »
After they dredged alligator cut back in the day mill cove has basically filled in.

BridgeTroll

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Re: JaxPort Dredging Fiasco?
« Reply #19 on: May 14, 2021, 05:13:33 PM »
After they dredged alligator cut back in the day mill cove has basically filled in.

Then dredging there is required... The river is an economic engine... always has been.  If not for the shipping Jax would be a swampy backwater. Yes... there are environmental impacts.  Pick your poison.  Walk along the Riverwalk anywhere and start counting all the litter and trash lining the river... Your litter and trash.
In a boat at sea one of the men began to bore a hole in the bottom of the boat. On being remonstrating with, he answered, "I am only boring under my own seat." "Yes," said his companions, "but when the sea rushes in we shall all be drowned with you."

marcuscnelson

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Re: JaxPort Dredging Fiasco?
« Reply #20 on: May 16, 2021, 03:25:17 AM »
Some letters yesterday combating the concerns on dredging. No mention of the power lines.

https://www.jacksonville.com/story/opinion/2021/05/15/letters-readers-why-cant-citys-projects-get-off-ground/5092379001/

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Dredging story doesn’t factor in development

I read with interest the column by Nate Monroe titled, "Dredging has made Jacksonville, vulnerable to storm surge." Monroe quotes from a new study published in the Journal of Geophysical Research to make his points. However I noticed that the study did not appear to take into consideration population growth and all the land development along with changes to the drainage systems over the last one hundred years but focused only on the dredging of the river. That is the problem these days with new studies that the media reports on. Do they really look at all the variables involved when they come to their conclusions or are they just out there to push a certain narrative or prove a certain point that is advantageous to them? 

Calvin Johnson, Jacksonville

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Monroe ignores the economics of dredging

Nate Monroe’s story ignores the economics of river dredging. Jacksonville is in competition with Savannah, Charleston and recently Brunswick for imports particularly automobiles. A silted in St Johns River would render Jacksonville a veritable and literal backwater that would make the city irrelevant in almost any context.

John Ekdahl, Ponte Vedra Beach
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Florida Power And Light

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Re: JaxPort Dredging Fiasco?
« Reply #21 on: May 16, 2021, 09:59:55 PM »
Bad Deals get Worse.

jaxlongtimer

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Re: JaxPort Dredging Fiasco?
« Reply #22 on: May 24, 2021, 12:38:20 PM »
After they dredged alligator cut back in the day mill cove has basically filled in.

Then dredging there is required... The river is an economic engine... always has been.  If not for the shipping Jax would be a swampy backwater. Yes... there are environmental impacts.  Pick your poison.  Walk along the Riverwalk anywhere and start counting all the litter and trash lining the river... Your litter and trash.

If the port is such an economic driver, why don't the user fees pay for the dredging?  And, some would argue the natural river and its preservation is more of an economic driver than destroying it and only having the port to show for it.  Aside from the beaches, Jax's most valued real estate is on the banks of our waterfront and I would imagine, along with the associated property taxes, could rival the value of the port.  That doesn't include ancillary businesses such as tourism, boating, fishing, cruising, etc. that derive income from the river.  Add the value of the environmental and resiliency benefits to the community and surrounding lands plus as a drainage basin and source of water supplies and I think it is clear the port moves down a few more notches.

BridgeTroll

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Re: JaxPort Dredging Fiasco?
« Reply #23 on: May 24, 2021, 05:26:19 PM »
The river... from Buckman to the ocean is about as "natural" as I 95... The banks are artificial... it is and has been heavily populated and polluted for a hundred years. It has been dredged multiple times over the past hundred years. Heavy shipping traffic once extended all the water to Green Cove Springs. 

Dredging to Jaxport or all the way to downtown really shouldn't be an issue...
In a boat at sea one of the men began to bore a hole in the bottom of the boat. On being remonstrating with, he answered, "I am only boring under my own seat." "Yes," said his companions, "but when the sea rushes in we shall all be drowned with you."

bl8jaxnative

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Re: JaxPort Dredging Fiasco?
« Reply #24 on: May 24, 2021, 06:39:55 PM »

If the port is such an economic driver, why don't the user fees pay for the dredging?

Ports long ago - rightly or wrongly - became a public good in this country.   I'd be happy for that to be different but I haven't seen any hope for that sort of change coming anytime soon.



And, some would argue the natural river and its preservation is more of an economic driver than destroying it and only having the port to show for it.  Aside from the beaches, Jax's most valued real estate is on the banks of our waterfront and I would imagine, along with the associated property taxes, could rival the value of the port. 


Considering 1/3 of the regions GDP is generated by the port, take that away and what happen to all that value?



jaxlongtimer

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Re: JaxPort Dredging Fiasco?
« Reply #25 on: May 25, 2021, 07:11:50 PM »
The river... from Buckman to the ocean is about as "natural" as I 95... The banks are artificial... it is and has been heavily populated and polluted for a hundred years. It has been dredged multiple times over the past hundred years. Heavy shipping traffic once extended all the water to Green Cove Springs. 

Dredging to Jaxport or all the way to downtown really shouldn't be an issue...

As they say, two (or more) wrongs don't make a right.  And, there is much that is good still left with the river.  Further, like the outcomes from the Everglades restoration,  fisheries moratoriums, enforced environmental regulations, etc. much can be restored with remedial actions.  The significant removal of pollution since the 1960's is just one example of that.

We are also supposed to have protective entities like the St. Johns River Water Management District, DEP, etc. although, unfortunately, Rick Scott de-fanged and mostly dismantled their abilities to execute their missions and DeSantis has only a little bit put them back together, at best.

The issue, right on top, about the dredging, is I see it as the Port's potential version of JTA's Skyway.  They build it and almost nobody comes.  There are many people questioning the business need for the dredging and what the ROI will ultimately be.  The power line height issue is just another log on this fire.  If this turns out to be so, we will be going economically backwards as we will have obtained a negative Port ROI and impaired the viability of the river.
« Last Edit: May 25, 2021, 07:17:50 PM by jaxlongtimer »

BridgeTroll

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Re: JaxPort Dredging Fiasco?
« Reply #26 on: May 25, 2021, 09:07:25 PM »
I’m not endorsing “two wrongs”.  I am choosing the economic engine that is the StJohns River from downtown to the ocean. We are a major seaport and the seaport like most includes a River that requires dredging. 

Lessee… Mississippi River… dredged. Savannah River… dredged. Panama Canal… dredged. Sues canal dredged. Every River seaport in Europe… dredged.
In a boat at sea one of the men began to bore a hole in the bottom of the boat. On being remonstrating with, he answered, "I am only boring under my own seat." "Yes," said his companions, "but when the sea rushes in we shall all be drowned with you."

acme54321

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Re: JaxPort Dredging Fiasco?
« Reply #27 on: May 25, 2021, 09:48:13 PM »
Comparing the port to the Skyway?  C'mon man!




jaxlongtimer

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Re: JaxPort Dredging Fiasco?
« Reply #28 on: May 25, 2021, 11:57:06 PM »
Comparing the port to the Skyway?  C'mon man!

Read my post again. I'm comparing the dredging project (not the entire Port) to the Skyway....  and only then if we spend hundreds of millions to deepen it and the ships we deepened it for don't show up in the expected numbers.  If that happens, then yes, it would mirror the Skyway story.  We shall see soon enough...

BridgeTroll

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Re: JaxPort Dredging Fiasco?
« Reply #29 on: May 26, 2021, 06:45:46 AM »
Comparing the port to the Skyway?  C'mon man!

By not dredging we KNOW which ships will never come...

Read my post again. I'm comparing the dredging project (not the entire Port) to the Skyway....  and only then if we spend hundreds of millions to deepen it and the ships we deepened it for don't show up in the expected numbers.  If that happens, then yes, it would mirror the Skyway story.  We shall see soon enough...
Comparing the port to the Skyway?  C'mon man!

Read my post again. I'm comparing the dredging project (not the entire Port) to the Skyway....  and only then if we spend hundreds of millions to deepen it and the ships we deepened it for don't show up in the expected numbers.  If that happens, then yes, it would mirror the Skyway story.  We shall see soon enough...

By not dredging we KNOW which ships will never come...  8)
In a boat at sea one of the men began to bore a hole in the bottom of the boat. On being remonstrating with, he answered, "I am only boring under my own seat." "Yes," said his companions, "but when the sea rushes in we shall all be drowned with you."