Jags are having a 'serious' conversation about a new team facility

[Captain Zissou]

UF just opened their new practice facility for $90 million, and it's not at all out there that an NFL facility costs a bit more.

This is also just the training facility. The indoor practice field was constructed in 2015 for $17M.  So add in two outdoor fields, a grand stand with retail below, and the other components and $120M is a good comp.

[vicupstate]

I was just reading about the Panthers training facility that has just "died" ($800M).  I'll take what we've got.

I believe that $800mm was for not just the team facilities but the infrastructure, multiple office buildings, retail centers, etc. 

[Ken_FSU]

https://www.espn.com/blog/miami-dolphins/post/_/id/32826/inside-the-miami-dolphins-135m-practice-facility-players-lounge-palm-trees-and-a-slide

This is almost identical to the Dolphins facility. They were able to buy out their materials during covid when everything was at a steep discount.  The Jaguars are buying out steel and concrete at the absolute highest prices in history and are still coming in under the Dolphins' budget.

The Jags actually contracted the exact same designer - Rossetti out of Detroit, who does a lot of these facilities - and used a very similar site plan.

To be clear, the Fox News conspiracy isn't that Shad Khan is acting in a vacuum to bilk the Jax taxpayers into thinking they're paying half for developments, but actually paying more than half.

The Fox News conspiracy is that, on the surface, it appears that a lot of these new NFL developments popping up seem to have price tags significantly higher than non-NFL developments (e.g. Jags and Dolphins pump $120 to $130 million into sports performance centers; UF and FSU pump $75 to $85 million into facilities that don't appear on the surface to be 50% to 60% fancier/bigger/more outwardly expensive. And they all seem to use the same handful of speciality firms to design and price them.

Just a fun conspiracy, I could be totally wrong, that's why I'm asking about whether elements of the job are RFP'd, how costs are disclosed back to the city, or if we just take the Jags word that a $120 million facility costs $120 million, a $450 million mini-mail truly costs half a billion dollars, and a $1 billion stadium project truly costs $1 billion.

Weirdest moment of the entire Lot J ordeal was when the Jags and Cordish flat-out told the City Council that detailed project costs were proprietary and that they refused to share them with the public.

Keep in mind also that the $120,000,000 price tag came down before construction material cost exploded.

It's a good project, I'm all for the Jags staying here long-term, we haven't had to dole out nearly as much in public money as most other cities over the last 30 years, just genuinely curious where that $120 million is going specifically, and how those costs are shared with the city.

[jaxlongtimer]

Any proposition requesting incentives or taxpayer contributions should have to be totally transparent and demonstrate how the costs presented were determined, ideally, via a competitive bidding process or by comparison to comparable good projects.  An accounting at the end of the project to verify the final costs would also be a good idea so an adjustment can be made for overestimates.  Not worried about underestimates - developers would never do that .

Just taking a developer's word for it is absurd and bad business. Of course, no one is worse at being business-like and following best practices and processes than the City of Jacksonville.  The City has squandered billions over the decades on poorly constructed "deals."  And,  it continues to this day.  In the private sector, our leaders wouldn't last a year in their jobs.  Maybe that's why they are elected officials and/or city/agency leaders.

[Charles Hunter]

Why are city leaders always getting the short end of the negotiation stick when they typically tout their "business experience" and they will "run the city like a business"?

[fsu813]

Opened in 2016, the Vikings facility needs another $280 mill in the next decade for maintenance.

https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2023/04/02/vikings-stadium-needs-280-million-in-maintenance-over-the-next-decade/

Lessons to learn from, for Jax.

[JPalmer]

Opened in 2016, the Vikings facility needs another $280 mill in the next decade for maintenance.

https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2023/04/02/vikings-stadium-needs-280-million-in-maintenance-over-the-next-decade/

Lessons to learn from, for Jax.

I have to imagine these figures include a lot of want-to haves, not just the need-to-haves. 

[Steve]

Another thing to keep in mind - this is the stadium, not the Vikings team/practice facility. While the Vikings are the primary tenant, they aren't the only users - examples are the University of Minnesota baseball team, who plays the first half of their schedule their. Turns out Minneapolis in February and March is brisk.

[pierre]

Another thing to keep in mind - this is the stadium, not the Vikings team/practice facility. While the Vikings are the primary tenant, they aren't the only users - examples are the University of Minnesota baseball team, who plays the first half of their schedule their. Turns out Minneapolis in February and March is brisk.

Yes. I was in downtown Minneapolis in summer 2018 and the X Games were there. They also host a ton of concerts and trade shows.

[Ken_FSU]

Interesting quote from Mark Lamping this week.

Seems to imply Lot J 2.0 may be bundled into the stadium deal.

With plans in place for TIAA Bank Field to undergo renovations in the near future, Jacksonville Jaguars president Mark Lamping said Wednesday that the organization is committed to remaining in Jacksonville for years to come.

According to Jeff Howe of The Athletic, Lamping said:

"Now it's time to see if other stakeholders in this community share or embrace the vision of the Jaguars and what we're trying to do, not only with the stadium but with the neighborhood around the stadium. The Jaguars have been here for a long time. It's certainly our intention to be here a long time."

[fsu813]

Interesting quote from Mark Lamping this week.

Seems to imply Lot J 2.0 may be bundled into the stadium deal.

With plans in place for TIAA Bank Field to undergo renovations in the near future, Jacksonville Jaguars president Mark Lamping said Wednesday that the organization is committed to remaining in Jacksonville for years to come.

According to Jeff Howe of The Athletic, Lamping said:

"Now it's time to see if other stakeholders in this community share or embrace the vision of the Jaguars and what we're trying to do, not only with the stadium but with the neighborhood around the stadium. The Jaguars have been here for a long time. It's certainly our intention to be here a long time."

Very logical. Better 1 gigantic ask than 2 in close succession. Wouldn't surprise me if additional funding for the high-profile riverfront parks or Eastside neighborhood was also bundled as part of it.

[jaxlongtimer]

There seems to be a trend for stadiums to now be integrated into surrounding development. I am guessing that Kahn has such plans since he is actually surrounding, or attempting to surround, the stadium with his projects including the Four Seasons, an office building, Lot J, the new team facility and the Fairgrounds.

As such, when the City negotiates a new stadium deal with him, the City needs to take into account the value-add for Kahn of the new stadium to his surrounding real estate plays and demand Kahn put up a larger portion than if the stadium stood alone.  The taxpayers should not doubly subsidize him via both the stadium and his surrounding developments (assuming Kahn continues to ask for incentives for those too).

[Ken_FSU]

Interesting quote from Mark Lamping this week.

Seems to imply Lot J 2.0 may be bundled into the stadium deal.

With plans in place for TIAA Bank Field to undergo renovations in the near future, Jacksonville Jaguars president Mark Lamping said Wednesday that the organization is committed to remaining in Jacksonville for years to come.

According to Jeff Howe of The Athletic, Lamping said:

"Now it's time to see if other stakeholders in this community share or embrace the vision of the Jaguars and what we're trying to do, not only with the stadium but with the neighborhood around the stadium. The Jaguars have been here for a long time. It's certainly our intention to be here a long time."

Very logical. Better 1 gigantic ask than 2 in close succession. Wouldn't surprise me if additional funding for the high-profile riverfront parks or Eastside neighborhood was also bundled as part of it.

Totally agree.

Jags and Cordish shot themselves in the foot with how they handled Lot J the first time, but I still think the project itself would have been great for the area.

Hoping it comes back in some form as part of the stadium deal.