Author Topic: Jags are having a 'serious' conversation about a new team facility  (Read 47382 times)

Captain Zissou

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Re: Jags are having a 'serious' conversation about a new team facility
« Reply #60 on: April 06, 2022, 10:12:06 AM »
I believe there is much more to this story than what the Jags and the City would have us believe.  The Jags are here in "small market Jax" in large part because they have an amazing deal on the stadium.  I don't believe in miracles. If other cities, far bigger than us, are spending hundreds of millions to billions to keep NFL teams, in some form or another, we must be too.
Have you tried to attend an NFL game in one of the larger market cities?  The ticket prices are much higher just to get in the door and the ceiling for various ticket packages is through the roof.  The Jaguars can only charge so much before they price themselves out of the market, so in general their total ticket revenue is lower.  While the cities like Nashville, Buffalo, and Las Vegas make the news for their incentive packages, larger market teams often get zero or minimal government incentives for remodels.  Miami got nothing for its $500M remodel, Sofi and Levi's stadium got no help from the state and minimal city support considering the project budgets. The larger market teams generate enough revenue from operations that they don't need help and the city and state governments notice that.  For TIAA Bank Field to be a part of the community, they need to keep prices low enough that the community can afford it.  For that reason their revenue does not support the capital requirements of a significant remodel.  The business has to stand on its own no matter who owns it, so incentives are required to keep it viable.

jaxjaguar

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Re: Jags are having a 'serious' conversation about a new team facility
« Reply #61 on: April 06, 2022, 10:41:26 AM »
Jacksonville is the only city with an NFL team and no other "big 5" pro teams (nba, nhl, mlb, mls). To go a bit further there's not a D1 college football team in the city either. Unless major changes to density and clustering happen, Jacksonville will forever be at the bottom of the list for sports towns. There's just no reason for fans from other teams to come here unless they're purely looking for cheap tickets and almost guaranteed win. We have ok beaches and ok golf courses, but there's nothing world class or unique to attract tourists outside of our stadium. There's nothing to encourage people to stay here other than the fact it's "cheap". The one saving grace for the Jags is they have literally 0 competition. In any other city they would've moved a long time ago.

Snaketoz

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Re: Jags are having a 'serious' conversation about a new team facility
« Reply #62 on: April 06, 2022, 11:44:47 AM »
Jacksonville is the only city with an NFL team and no other "big 5" pro teams (nba, nhl, mlb, mls). To go a bit further there's not a D1 college football team in the city either. Unless major changes to density and clustering happen, Jacksonville will forever be at the bottom of the list for sports towns. There's just no reason for fans from other teams to come here unless they're purely looking for cheap tickets and almost guaranteed win. We have ok beaches and ok golf courses, but there's nothing world class or unique to attract tourists outside of our stadium. There's nothing to encourage people to stay here other than the fact it's "cheap". The one saving grace for the Jags is they have literally 0 competition. In any other city they would've moved a long time ago.
Agreed.  It will never improve until we elect a mayor and council that thinks a lot differently than the current crowd.  I am embarrassed at the level of culture here in my hometown.  Things have got to change.
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jaxlongtimer

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Re: Jags are having a 'serious' conversation about a new team facility
« Reply #63 on: April 06, 2022, 08:45:50 PM »
One other thought:  We need to add all the "extras" that Kahn is asking for with the Hart Bridge ramp removal, Lot J or its future incarnations, the Shipyards/Four Seasons, etc.  These extras, totaling hundreds of millions in additional taxpayer dollars are all supposedly provided to keep the Jags in town too.  In my mind, it is all part of the "package" and should be accounted for accordingly.
The city makes 100% of its money back on the Four Seasons incentives and that was something hashed out between the DIA and the Jaguars.  The bulk of the incentives for the development come in the form of a REV grant on land that was previously contributing zero dollars to the city tax rolls.  Shad will get a reduced property tax bill for the first 20 years of the project, but after that he will be paying millions per year in property taxes.  Even before the REV grant ends he will be paying millions in taxes annually.  Add to that the bed tax money, sales tax, the $4M contribution to Met Park and the work done to renovate the marina at Met Park and you can see the city is getting a lot for their contribution.  The city is including as part of the incentives both the parkland that he is actually building on as well as the new park space where the Orleck and the Firehouse will be. If you compare this to the deal at One Riverside, Shad is not getting as favorable of terms as other developers in this city.

Captain, points noted.  However, underlying your assumption, right off the bat, is that the Four Seasons is immensely successful.  We heard the same story when they City bent over to get the Adams Mark, now Hyatt, that it "had to have" to bid for a Super Bowl.  That hotel has gone bankrupt at least twice by my count.  I also believe you are potentially way overstating the tax revenues the hotel will generate.  Additionally, I note that it is in a Federal Opportunity Zone enabling Kahn to potentially pay zero Federal income tax on a sale of the hotel in future years and, until then, to defer capital gains taxes for a decade or so.

To my point, based on the info in the below article, Kahn will be paying only $795,000/year in property taxes for 20 years.  That is hardly the "millions" you appear to be counting on and, when adjusted for present value, is further greatly reduced.

Quote
The city also would rebate 75 percent of city property taxes generated by the value of the new development for a 20-year period. That would be an incentive worth up to $47.7 million.

https://www.jacksonville.com/story/news/local/2021/10/10/four-seasons-hotels-nashville-and-jacksonville-show-downtown-contrast/6042894001/

As to any bed taxes, it has already been noted here those will likely benefit back to Kahn to help pay for his stadium upgrade.  That isn't a return to the rank and file citizens of Jax who are fronting his incentives from the general fund.  If correct, this would be an example of the shell game played on these deals since the general fund will ultimately be funding the stadium.

All in all, there is a good bit of risk to the payback and it may take far longer (decades!) to pay back the City's $114 million (in today's dollars and if that ends up being the real number) if it ever comes.  Adjusted for inflation, we may never see it all back.

Keep in mind my underlying cynicism is based on the City's track record as a terrible negotiator, rigging presentations to get what the Mayor wants, not being business savvy, not doing well running numbers (see Lot J)and Kahn having the Mayor in his pocket.  On the other hand, Kahn didn't get rich being outmaneuvered on business deals.  If I am a betting person, I give the win over the taxpayers to him, hands down.
« Last Edit: April 10, 2022, 09:36:13 PM by jaxlongtimer »

BossmanOdum10

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Re: Jags are having a 'serious' conversation about a new team facility
« Reply #64 on: April 06, 2022, 08:54:37 PM »
Green Bay has another Major League team?? @jaxjaguar

jaxlongtimer

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Re: Jags are having a 'serious' conversation about a new team facility
« Reply #65 on: April 06, 2022, 09:00:51 PM »
I believe there is much more to this story than what the Jags and the City would have us believe.  The Jags are here in "small market Jax" in large part because they have an amazing deal on the stadium.  I don't believe in miracles. If other cities, far bigger than us, are spending hundreds of millions to billions to keep NFL teams, in some form or another, we must be too.
Have you tried to attend an NFL game in one of the larger market cities?  The ticket prices are much higher just to get in the door and the ceiling for various ticket packages is through the roof.  The Jaguars can only charge so much before they price themselves out of the market, so in general their total ticket revenue is lower.  While the cities like Nashville, Buffalo, and Las Vegas make the news for their incentive packages, larger market teams often get zero or minimal government incentives for remodels.  Miami got nothing for its $500M remodel, Sofi and Levi's stadium got no help from the state and minimal city support considering the project budgets. The larger market teams generate enough revenue from operations that they don't need help and the city and state governments notice that.  For TIAA Bank Field to be a part of the community, they need to keep prices low enough that the community can afford it.  For that reason their revenue does not support the capital requirements of a significant remodel.  The business has to stand on its own no matter who owns it, so incentives are required to keep it viable.

According to the below article, every NFL city's stadium except Charlotte and Miami has received taxpayer subsidies.  In LA, it appears the developer received $100 million in tax breaks.  I believe all these markets are larger than Jax other than Green Bay.  So, getting more ticket revenue doesn't seem to cure the issue.

Quote
Stadium and rent details for all 32 NFL teams

https://www.reviewjournal.com/sports/raiders-nfl/stadium-and-rent-details-for-all-32-nfl-teams/

That said, my point all along is we taxpayers are paying more for the stadium than we are being led to believe.  You are helping to support that theory by saying our low ticket prices demand big subsidies, even bigger than most other cities.  Thus, I don't see a disagreement here with my proposition that numbers may be bigger than they first appear.
« Last Edit: April 06, 2022, 09:02:41 PM by jaxlongtimer »

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Ken_FSU

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Re: Jags are having a 'serious' conversation about a new team facility
« Reply #67 on: September 16, 2022, 09:08:14 AM »
Have been driving by the new Sports Performance Center every morning on my way into the office.

It's coming together nicely, but it certainly doesn't seem like particularly complex construction.

Anyone else think it doesn't really pass the smell test that this thing really costs $120 million to construct? For context, that's nearly as much as FIS's new riverfront tower, including the parking garage.



Reminds me of the $450 million price tag on the Lot J mini mall, including a quoted price of $125 million on a 115-room boutique hotel.

Curious if anyone knows:

Do the Jags RFP aspects of these projects, or hand select their partners absent a competitive bid?

We know from the Lot J negotiations that Cordish, at least, wasn't willing to share their pro forma.

With price tags coming in so inflated for some of these Jags projects (and other public/private developments from other NFL owners), the conspiratorial side of me can't help but wonder if the city's $60 million contribution to a $120 million project might actually be a $60 million contribution to a $90 million project, creatively positioned as a $120 million project in collaboration with the handful of partners that seem to work with NFL owners on these things.

Massive ask coming for the stadium, I hope we due some due diligence and make sure we're not paying half or more on an artificially inflated price tag.

Captain Zissou

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Re: Jags are having a 'serious' conversation about a new team facility
« Reply #68 on: September 16, 2022, 11:12:05 AM »
That was some Fox News-esque conspiracy theory proposed as possible fact.

Ken_FSU

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Re: Jags are having a 'serious' conversation about a new team facility
« Reply #69 on: September 16, 2022, 12:06:49 PM »
That was some Fox News-esque conspiracy theory proposed as possible fact.

Shit, meant to use my Tucker_FSU handle  ;D

But seriously, a barn and a couple of football fields cost more than twice the Regional Transportation center ($56 million)? $50 million more than the BOFA tower recently sold for ($75 million)? Two and a half times the Margaritaville Hotel at Jax Beach ($50 million)? $30 million more than Related's upcoming 335-unit, 535-space garage development on the Southbank? 6 times more than the average high school costs to build ($20 million)? $35 million more than estimates to relocate and build the new MOSH? 6 times more than the Armada's estimate for a new Eastside stadium/office complex? Roughly twice as much as the combined budgets to build or restore parks at the Landing, Shipyards, Friendship Park, and Times-Union Center?

This project costs $70 million more than a new 25-story luxury high rise under construction in Tampa (the Nolen).





For $20 million cheaper than the sports facility, St. Louis is building a 25-story mixed use development inclusive of a hotel, condos, event space, rooftop bars, street-level retail, and a 400-space garage. For $100 million, Atlanta is building an even larger mixed-use 260,000 square foot development with office, medical, retail, hotel, restaurant, parking, etc.

Construction cam is here, you can judge for yourself, maybe I'm crazy, but $120 million is a boatload of money, even with inflated construction costs.

https://app.truelook.cloud/dashboard/716/1189/live?code=ethylubkpwjdwi0gvaaelh8ga

Personally, I've been a little skeptical since the Jags estimated that the below 115-unit boutique hotel would cost $125 million to construct during the Lot J negotiations.


Captain Zissou

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Re: Jags are having a 'serious' conversation about a new team facility
« Reply #70 on: September 16, 2022, 12:44:11 PM »
https://www.espn.com/blog/miami-dolphins/post/_/id/32826/inside-the-miami-dolphins-135m-practice-facility-players-lounge-palm-trees-and-a-slide

This is almost identical to the Dolphins facility. They were able to buy out their materials during covid when everything was at a steep discount.  The Jaguars are buying out steel and concrete at the absolute highest prices in history and are still coming in under the Dolphins' budget.

blizz01

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Re: Jags are having a 'serious' conversation about a new team facility
« Reply #71 on: September 16, 2022, 01:30:08 PM »
I was just reading about the Panthers training facility that has just "died" ($800M).  I'll take what we've got.

jaxoNOLE

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Re: Jags are having a 'serious' conversation about a new team facility
« Reply #72 on: September 16, 2022, 01:41:00 PM »
https://247sports.com/LongFormArticle/College-footballs-25-best-facilities-in-2022-ranked-182436036/#182436036_2


College football performance facilities are in the same range for new construction. Our very own FSU is estimating a $75M price tag for its new football-only facility. Michigan spent $168M!

vicupstate

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Re: Jags are having a 'serious' conversation about a new team facility
« Reply #73 on: September 16, 2022, 01:56:01 PM »
I NEVER bought the Lot J numbers from the break. They were clearly inflated, and not by a little either. Comparing other NFL facilities to this project is not legit either if there is an 'understanding' within the NFL to inflate numbers across the board for their collective benefit.  I think that is what Ken is referring to.  Most if not all of the projects Ken mentioned probably had land acquisition costs as well, which this project does not have. 
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marcuscnelson

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Re: Jags are having a 'serious' conversation about a new team facility
« Reply #74 on: September 16, 2022, 02:19:26 PM »
But seriously, a barn and a couple of football fields cost more than twice the Regional Transportation center ($56 million)? $50 million more than the BOFA tower recently sold for ($75 million)? Two and a half times the Margaritaville Hotel at Jax Beach ($50 million)? $30 million more than Related's upcoming 335-unit, 535-space garage development on the Southbank? 6 times more than the average high school costs to build ($20 million)? $35 million more than estimates to relocate and build the new MOSH? 6 times more than the Armada's estimate for a new Eastside stadium/office complex? Roughly twice as much as the combined budgets to build or restore parks at the Landing, Shipyards, Friendship Park, and Times-Union Center?

I'm not saying you're entirely wrong, but it's worth noting a lot of the previous price tags you've mentioned here. The JRTC went through some serious cost cutting in the planning process and the price doesn't include the additional millions that will eventually be needed for the Skyway conversion they want and the addition of actual rail service at some point. The BofA tower cost close to double the recent sale price to construct ($60 million in 1989), and local high schools before the recent inflation cost around 4 times your estimate. As jaxoNOLE notes, college facilities cost pretty close to the same amount. UF just opened their new practice facility for $90 million, and it's not at all out there that an NFL facility costs a bit more.

But yes, the Lot J numbers were obviously absolute BS, which it why it's dead (at least for now).
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