Jags are having a 'serious' conversation about a new team facility

[Papa33]

Is there a mechanism in place now to ask for and received funding from the State for stadium reno?  Did the Dolphins receive any state money?  How about the Bucs or other professional teams in the state?

[pierre]

Apparently, the survey is limited to people the Jags sent an email to.

I got the survey. Not from the Jaguars directly but through the 1st DownTown Jacksonville initiative.

[fieldafm]

Is there a mechanism in place now to ask for and received funding from the State for stadium reno?  Did the Dolphins receive any state money?  How about the Bucs or other professional teams in the state?

The Dolphins did not get state assistance during their last renovation. They do receive some annual incentives from the County.

There is an annual rebate program available at the State level, provided there are stadium improvements totaling at least $200mm. It was established just after the Dolphins started on their renovations, but it has never been tapped into.  State legislators have been trying to close that program for years, and likely will in the next year.

From reading the tea leaves over the last decade, it would likely be a very heavy lift for Jacksonville to get incentives from the State of Florida for stadium construction.  It was a pretty heavy lift to get Federal and State funding for the Hart Bridge ramp removals.

Jacksonville currently gets $2mm in sales taxes rebated annually, which will end around the time the stadium lease ends. 

The new Formula One race series coming to Miami is also seeking to exempt ticket sales all together from being subject to state sales taxes.  Currently, the Super Bowl, Pro Bowl and all of the college championship games are exempt from sales taxes.

[I-10east]

I was recently in Nissan stadium and it is in desperate need of replacement.  They tried to go the renovation route, but it just needs too much work.  What was initially a $600M price tag is now $1B, so you might as well start anew.  The state of Tennessee has now stepped in to contribute $500M to the cost of building a new stadium.  As the survey below states, the Jags stadium is structurally sound and to me it is in much better condition than Nissan stadium.  We will be able to do a Miami style renovation, but the Titans don't have that option.

I hear ya Capt. Thanks for the info.

[Ken_FSU]

Interesting note is that both the city and the Jags want the new stadium to have a fixed number of seats, built to accommodate both the Jags and Florida/Georgia. There won’t be an option for temporary seating like we have now. Will be interesting to see what the capacity is. 63k feels just about right for our market from an NFL perspective, but the colleges will probably want 20,000 more than that.

[Charles Hunter]

Good point, Ken.
If they add a partial roof, I don't see how they could add temporary seats - at least the way they do it now by extending the endzone seating.

[itsfantastic1]

Interesting note is that both the city and the Jags want the new stadium to have a fixed number of seats, built to accommodate both the Jags and Florida/Georgia. There won’t be an option for temporary seating like we have now. Will be interesting to see what the capacity is. 63k feels just about right for our market from an NFL perspective, but the colleges will probably want 20,000 more than that.

One of the survey's questions I think hinted how they plan to handle that. They mentioned the interest in standing room only with a bar type set-up, probably similar to the Dicks Wings Zone. May be a way to squirrel more people into the stadium for Florida Georgia without needing to add more seats than the Jags can support.

[Ken_FSU]

FANTASTIC article from the Ringer about what's happening in Oakland right now.

https://www.theringer.com/mlb/2022/4/4/23003293/oakland-athletics-coliseum-sports-town-negotiations

[Steve]

Lets face it, this new stadium talk isn't about practicality; it's all about raising a NFL team's value. The "perfect modern stadium" with the latest prototyped electronics, a gazillion foot concourses, and window dressing that makes SoFi Stadium and Allegiant Stadium blush; or you can spend alot less money making sense like Miami and just renovate the hell out of the stadium.

I was recently in Nissan stadium and it is in desperate need of replacement.  They tried to go the renovation route, but it just needs too much work.  What was initially a $600M price tag is now $1B, so you might as well start anew.  The state of Tennessee has now stepped in to contribute $500M to the cost of building a new stadium.  As the survey below states, the Jags stadium is structurally sound and to me it is in much better condition than Nissan stadium.  We will be able to do a Miami style renovation, but the Titans don't have that option.

How did Nissan Stadium fall into such disrepair? It's 4 years newer than the Bank?

[Ken_FSU]

Lets face it, this new stadium talk isn't about practicality; it's all about raising a NFL team's value. The "perfect modern stadium" with the latest prototyped electronics, a gazillion foot concourses, and window dressing that makes SoFi Stadium and Allegiant Stadium blush; or you can spend alot less money making sense like Miami and just renovate the hell out of the stadium.

I was recently in Nissan stadium and it is in desperate need of replacement.  They tried to go the renovation route, but it just needs too much work.  What was initially a $600M price tag is now $1B, so you might as well start anew.  The state of Tennessee has now stepped in to contribute $500M to the cost of building a new stadium.  As the survey below states, the Jags stadium is structurally sound and to me it is in much better condition than Nissan stadium.  We will be able to do a Miami style renovation, but the Titans don't have that option.

How did Nissan Stadium fall into such disrepair? It's 4 years newer than the Bank?

Seems like it was built on the cheap, relatively speaking. Concrete frame is crumbling and needs to be replaced by steel. All of the major systems need replacements. All the needs need to be replaced. So much is broken that the general feeling is that it’s not responsible to pour $1 billion+ into rehab when they could build anew for the future, particularly for a tourist trap like Nashville that wants to be in the regular Super Bowl rotation.

Someone I trust is convinced that the Jags are ultimately going to come to the same conclusion. I don’t necessarily buy it, but it is interesting to see Tennessee and Buffalo both going the new stadium route.

[jaxlongtimer]

I work in marketing, so I know how percentages are often used to obfuscate the true costs. Comparing dollars to dollars, the numbers don't look as good as what the politicians and NFL are selling. The Bills' stadium was built for the equivalent of $141 million in today's dollars. That means the Buffalo taxpayers are investing more than 6 times as much as they did to originally build the stadium. 

In Jax's case, the Jags stadium was constructed for the equivalent of $225 million in today's dollars. In 2013, the city contributed the equivalent of $76 million in today's dollars for the scoreboards and pools. Then we had the renovation in 2016 for $106 million in today's dollars. That's about $407 million for roughly the Jaguars first decade of existence.

Looking at the next decade or so, we've got the $60 million public investment. Then let's say the Jags evenly split a $1 billion stadium project. That's maybe $560 million over the next decade and that's probably conservative. So let's say $56 million a year in public investment to keep the Jags to make it easier to comprehend.

Do we offset the $56 million price through taxes collected and direct economic impact to the community each year? Does the community benefit enough in other ways to justify the investment? Personally, I'm skeptical, but I'm open to hearing any figures that might change my mind.

As a fellow marketing/analytics guy who's somewhat close to the numbers through working with the city, I've got a slightly different take on it.

First, to clean up the timeline a little bit and go a little deeper into a few of the investments:

1992 - Before any serious talk of NFL expansion, the City of Jacksonville agreed to nearly $50 million in renovations to Jax Municipal Stadium to keep Georgia-Florida here through 2002.

1993 - In an effort to secure an NFL franchise, the city upped the stadium renovation to $121 million. So really, we can't really say that we spent $121 million to build a stadium for the Jags when we were already committed to a badly needed $50 million renovation already. True incremental number for the original stadium build from an NFL perspective is around $71 million.

That puts us at $71 million in stadium costs to get us through the first 10 years of the franchise's existence.

2004 - The city spends an additional $47 million to upgrade EverBank Field ahead of Super Bowl XXXIX. This is when the Bud Zone, escalators, and original video board were added. Yes, the Jags benefited from the stadium renovations, but the impetus for this spend was to make EverBank Field more attractive for events like Super Bowls and to keep Georgia and Florida happy. So I don't think it's fair to say that this investment was made to keep the Jags in Jacksonville either. Let's call it 50/50 and say $24 million went to the Jags.

So that's $95 million.

2013 - The city commits another $43 million to the scoreboard additions and endzone improvements.

2015 - The city tosses in another $45 million for Daily's Place, Flex Field, and club seat renovations. I won't deduct it, but do keep in mind that the city had been trying to build an amphitheater since the Delaney administration.

So, that's $183 million (non-adjusted for inflation and interest, which is admittedly significant) in "public" money toward keeping the NFL here over the last 26 seasons.

So that's roughly $7 million per year (plus debt service) that we've spent as a city on the stadium in support of the Jags up to this point.

Feels like a steal when you look at the broader NFL landscape and how much other cities are paying.

Especially when you consider how little of that has actually come out of the pockets of the actual Jacksonville's taxpayers.

All of the major improvements have been debt-financed off the back of our local bed tax, meaning that tourists bear a heavier burden for these stadium projects than locals do. 2% straight up goes toward paying off stadium debt, and another 2% was put toward maintenance of the sports complex after the Prime Osborne was paid off.

Additionally, we get $2 million from the state each year as a sale tax rebate for relief with stadium debt; $5 million+ a year from ticket surcharges and parking revenue; over $4 million a year from the Jags in rent; $1 million in concessions, etc.

Now, the stadium isn't entirely self-sustaining and the economics will never make compelling sense on a balance sheet, but - particularly since we upped the bed tax contribution to 4% - we're drawing very little from the general fund to pay for the stadium. More money has probably come out of the general fund to force Toney Sleiman out of the Landing than has come out to pay for the stadium over the last 8 or 9 years.

And, if we were to put $560 million into renovating the stadium, it won't be a $56 million annual public investment over 10 years, it will another long-term debt-financed project paid off primarily by revenue sources that can only be used for similar projects (the bed tax), and from revenue sources that wouldn't exist in the absence of the stadium (ticket surcharges, parking revenue, concessions, escalating rent payments from the Jags, etc.).

Will there still be a high taxpayer cost? Sure, but it's not going to cripple the city.

Realistically, the biggest short-term tradeoff is that a true convention center probably won't be coming any time soon.

Any maybe we'll have to wait on spending $1 billion+ to relocate the jail.

One other thing that's probably worth pointing out when talking about the stadium is that we're not just talking about renovations for the sake of keeping the Jags in Jacksonville for another 20-30 years (FWIW, I've heard the proposed lease extension is going to be closer to 20 years than 30 years). We're also talking about keeping Georgia-Florida long-term, competing for NCAA playoff games and major events, and keeping Jacksonville competitive and relevant in the event space over the coming decades. Less glamorous aspects of the stadium like the electrical and drainage systems are reaching end-of-life and will need to be renovated regardless of what happens with the Jags.

Jacksonville is growing, our bed taxes are only going to continue to increase, and I think it's a bit of a strawman argument when people argue that the full brunt of our stadium share is going to come at the expense of our schools, infrastructure, crime prevention, hospitals, etc.

Hate the NFL monopoly and how the league leaches off its host cities, and the Jags have ruined more Sundays for me than I can count over the last decade, but to me, financing a new stadium tied to a lease extension guaranteed to keep the NFL in Jacksonville through 2050+ is the biggest no brainer out there.

Ken, thanks for the info.  However, knowing the shell games the City plays, I am not convinced this is the full story or that the published numbers match the actual numbers.  I know the original stadium costs ran over budget so do your numbers reflect that?

Also, who pays the maintenance and operating expenses and utilities of the stadium?  And the security and traffic control on game day?  These are major amounts if the City is picking up much or all of that.  Did you factor in the ongoing infrastructure expenses to support the stadium area such as improving the roads, drainage, utilities, signage, etc.?

And, who gets the revenue from non-Jags events such as the Monster Truck Jam, concerts, stadium club rentals, etc.?

I believe there is much more to this story than what the Jags and the City would have us believe.  The Jags are here in "small market Jax" in large part because they have an amazing deal on the stadium.  I don't believe in miracles. If other cities, far bigger than us, are spending hundreds of millions to billions to keep NFL teams, in some form or another, we must be too.

[Ken_FSU]

Ken, thanks for the info.  However, knowing the shell games the City plays, I am not convinced this is the full story or that the published numbers match the actual numbers.

Thanks buddy!

I know the original stadium costs ran over budget so do your numbers reflect that?

Original stadium had cost overruns of $20 million, which was paid back by the Jags via $1.5 million supplemental annual rent payments between 1993 and ~2008.

Also, who pays the maintenance?

Maintenance typically comes out of the 2% of the bed tax set aside for the Sports Complex. Occasionally - like when VyStar Memorial Arena started shedding bricks - there might be a supplement hit to the general fund, but for the most part, it comes from the bed tax. For the new practice facility, the Jags will be responsible for 100% of maintenance, repair, and upkeep.

Also, who pays the utilities of the stadium?

Utilities are paid for by the Jags. When the new scoreboards and banner boards were added, the utility fees were adjusted accordingly. As part of the agreement for that particular project, the utility bill is reviewed and adjusted annually.

And the security and traffic control on game day?

Security and traffic control costs are split between SMG (who manages the facility) and the Jacksonville Sheriff's office, with a portion of ticket/parking surcharges going to cover this. The latest estimates I've seen have total security costs for each Jags game coming in at around $60,000. It's not an insignificant amount, but security is always going to be an expense for the city. For context, we spend more on security for Florida/Georgia each year than we do for all 8 Jags home games combined. Heck, I wouldn't be surprised if we spent more taxpayer money sending police to Walmarts annually though (now there's a security scam) than we do for all stadium events combined.

Who pays the operating expenses?

Ushers, ticket takers, bartenders, servers, cashiers, security, merchandise staff, housekeeping and parking attendants are all on the Jags/SMG's (not city's) payroll. They typically have job fairs leading up to the season to hire ~1,000 part-time employees for the season.

Did you factor in the ongoing infrastructure expenses to support the stadium area such as improving the roads, drainage, utilities, signage, etc.?

Wouldn't this be a city expense in support of the 300+ events that take place each year at the sports complex, rather than an expense that wouldn't exist in the absence of the Jags?

And, who gets the revenue from non-Jags events such as the Monster Truck Jam, concerts, stadium club rentals, etc.?

With the exception of the concerts that the Jags/Bold Events co-produce (usually an annual concert - Lynyrd Skynyrd, Rolling Stones, Green Day), other stadium events are run by the city in conjunction with SMG, or through other partnerships (like Florida/Georgia and the Gator Bowl). Monster Jam revenues, for example, aren't going to the Jags.

I believe there is much more to this story than what the Jags and the City would have us believe.  The Jags are here in "small market Jax" in large part because they have an amazing deal on the stadium.  I don't believe in miracles. If other cities, far bigger than us, are spending hundreds of millions to billions to keep NFL teams, in some form or another, we must be too.

Agree and disagree! Though there are additional hidden costs associated with the city owning and operating a large stadium (such as the $1.6 million it costs each year to install temporary seating for Florida/Georgia), I don't think current day TIAA Bank Field has by any stretch of the imagination been a financial albatross for the city of Jacksonville.

That said, we are going to need to spend SIGNIFICANT money to keep the Jags here long-term. Might be $600 million. Could be $1 billion if they package in Lot J 2.0 (which I think we'll know more about no later than next year's State of the Franchise, but potentially much earlier) and costs keep rising like they are.

Bed tax alone ain't gonna cover all of that.

[Captain Zissou]

How did Nissan Stadium fall into such disrepair? It's 4 years newer than the Bank?

Structural steel vs concrete?  I'd have to look into it more, but it seemed much more dated than our facilities.  It may not have had the interim updates to the club sections and other amenities that TIAA had.

[jaxlongtimer]

Ken, thanks for the info.  However, knowing the shell games the City plays, I am not convinced this is the full story or that the published numbers match the actual numbers.

Thanks buddy!

I know the original stadium costs ran over budget so do your numbers reflect that?

Original stadium had cost overruns of $20 million, which was paid back by the Jags via $1.5 million supplemental annual rent payments between 1993 and ~2008.

Also, who pays the maintenance?

Maintenance typically comes out of the 2% of the bed tax set aside for the Sports Complex. Occasionally - like when VyStar Memorial Arena started shedding bricks - there might be a supplement hit to the general fund, but for the most part, it comes from the bed tax. For the new practice facility, the Jags will be responsible for 100% of maintenance, repair, and upkeep.

Also, who pays the utilities of the stadium?

Utilities are paid for by the Jags. When the new scoreboards and banner boards were added, the utility fees were adjusted accordingly. As part of the agreement for that particular project, the utility bill is reviewed and adjusted annually.

And the security and traffic control on game day?

Security and traffic control costs are split between SMG (who manages the facility) and the Jacksonville Sheriff's office, with a portion of ticket/parking surcharges going to cover this. The latest estimates I've seen have total security costs for each Jags game coming in at around $60,000. It's not an insignificant amount, but security is always going to be an expense for the city. For context, we spend more on security for Florida/Georgia each year than we do for all 8 Jags home games combined. Heck, I wouldn't be surprised if we spent more taxpayer money sending police to Walmarts annually though (now there's a security scam) than we do for all stadium events combined.

Who pays the operating expenses?

Ushers, ticket takers, bartenders, servers, cashiers, security, merchandise staff, housekeeping and parking attendants are all on the Jags/SMG's (not city's) payroll. They typically have job fairs leading up to the season to hire ~1,000 part-time employees for the season.

Did you factor in the ongoing infrastructure expenses to support the stadium area such as improving the roads, drainage, utilities, signage, etc.?

Wouldn't this be a city expense in support of the 300+ events that take place each year at the sports complex, rather than an expense that wouldn't exist in the absence of the Jags?

And, who gets the revenue from non-Jags events such as the Monster Truck Jam, concerts, stadium club rentals, etc.?

With the exception of the concerts that the Jags/Bold Events co-produce (usually an annual concert - Lynyrd Skynyrd, Rolling Stones, Green Day), other stadium events are run by the city in conjunction with SMG, or through other partnerships (like Florida/Georgia and the Gator Bowl). Monster Jam revenues, for example, aren't going to the Jags.

I believe there is much more to this story than what the Jags and the City would have us believe.  The Jags are here in "small market Jax" in large part because they have an amazing deal on the stadium.  I don't believe in miracles. If other cities, far bigger than us, are spending hundreds of millions to billions to keep NFL teams, in some form or another, we must be too.

Agree and disagree! Though there are additional hidden costs associated with the city owning and operating a large stadium (such as the $1.6 million it costs each year to install temporary seating for Florida/Georgia), I don't think current day TIAA Bank Field has by any stretch of the imagination been a financial albatross for the city of Jacksonville.

That said, we are going to need to spend SIGNIFICANT money to keep the Jags here long-term. Might be $600 million. Could be $1 billion if they package in Lot J 2.0 (which I think we'll know more about no later than next year's State of the Franchise, but potentially much earlier) and costs keep rising like they are.

Bed tax alone ain't gonna cover all of that.

Ken, thanks for the detailed reply.  Sorry to be the ultimate cynic,  but, as a lifelong resident, I know there is always much more hidden well below the surface of Jax "icebergs" that we taxpayers don't really get to understand or see.  Also, Kahn is a "take no prisoners" businessman and supplies big campaign contributions to our local politicos, starting with the Mayor, so he surely has expectations for big paybacks from the City treasury.

I note your last entry appears to be in 2015.  What about adding in the practice facility of late?

One other thought:  We need to add all the "extras" that Kahn is asking for with the Hart Bridge ramp removal, Lot J or its future incarnations, the Shipyards/Four Seasons, etc.  These extras, totaling hundreds of millions in additional taxpayer dollars are all supposedly provided to keep the Jags in town too.  In my mind, it is all part of the "package" and should be accounted for accordingly.

[Captain Zissou]

One other thought:  We need to add all the "extras" that Kahn is asking for with the Hart Bridge ramp removal, Lot J or its future incarnations, the Shipyards/Four Seasons, etc.  These extras, totaling hundreds of millions in additional taxpayer dollars are all supposedly provided to keep the Jags in town too.  In my mind, it is all part of the "package" and should be accounted for accordingly.

The city makes 100% of its money back on the Four Seasons incentives and that was something hashed out between the DIA and the Jaguars.  The bulk of the incentives for the development come in the form of a REV grant on land that was previously contributing zero dollars to the city tax rolls.  Shad will get a reduced property tax bill for the first 20 years of the project, but after that he will be paying millions per year in property taxes.  Even before the REV grant ends he will be paying millions in taxes annually.  Add to that the bed tax money, sales tax, the $4M contribution to Met Park and the work done to renovate the marina at Met Park and you can see the city is getting a lot for their contribution.  The city is including as part of the incentives both the parkland that he is actually building on as well as the new park space where the Orleck and the Firehouse will be. If you compare this to the deal at One Riverside, Shad is not getting as favorable of terms as other developers in this city.