Author Topic: DIA wants the Landing to start with a park  (Read 40143 times)

martt12

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Re: DIA wants the Landing to start with a park
« Reply #120 on: June 25, 2021, 10:23:38 AM »
Definitely some lovely presentations. And I see the broad consensus appears to surround the Perkins & Will proposal. Hopefully the DIA agrees.

The question I'd ask is, seeing now that stuff like Atkins' Riverfront Jax proposal exists, how could we potentially reconcile those proposed designs? Suppose we drop the Riverfront Jax park design entirely, how could something like Perkins & Will's design then fit into that space? How might that affect the proposed city share of that project? Can we make these ideas work together?

I agree. That is if DIA is taking Atkin’s proposal under any consideration.  I was thinking the same thing because his proposal is an answer to other issues not to far away. However,  I definitely like Perkins & Will’s park design the most out of them all.

thelakelander

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Re: DIA wants the Landing to start with a park
« Reply #121 on: June 25, 2021, 10:41:24 AM »
After more review of these plans, I think all will be a lot more expensive than advertised. Especially the Perkins & Will one. That Jax structure alone will likely end up consuming the lion's share, if not all, of the conceptual cost estimate provided. There's also some complex engineering involved with some of the aspects of these proposals like the recreation of marsh like conditions that will end up raising the prices once they really dive into design.

The numbers expressed remind me of the estimates being tossed out for the Emerald Trail during the initial stakeholder committee meetings. I thought the consulting planner was pulling numbers out of his ass because in the real world projects that I have been involved with, the cost back then were nearly twice as high. As time went on and the conceptual unknowns became knowns, the cost did dramatically increase and that increase was a lot more than material costs going up. Much of it was just starting off with totally unrealistic estimates. Btw, the same thing applies to JTA's U2C.

Even with the estimates produced to date, the range makes these apples and oranges (i.e. yes, a $30 million project should be better than a $15 million one). I hope the selection committee and city will take all this into account and be prepared to set aside the proper funds needed to construct and maintain a first class space. Let's not get heartburn when we find ourselves in the $50 million range.
« Last Edit: June 25, 2021, 10:44:03 AM by thelakelander »
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Ken_FSU

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Re: DIA wants the Landing to start with a park
« Reply #122 on: June 25, 2021, 10:55:34 AM »
I definitely like Perkins & Will’s park design the most out of them all.

Even putting design preferences aside, if you look at the actual proposals, I don't know how anyone other than P+W can win this thing.

They came for blood with this one.

200-page proposal, built around the exact specs and requirements of the RFP; informed by community engagement and over 600 survey responses; centered on an iconic, Jacksonville-specific public art piece (as requested in the RFP); accounting for everything you could possibly ask for in a proposal from an environmental, topographical, landscaping, and programming perspective.

It's a massive file, but can't recommend looking through the Powerpoint deck enough.

They map the currents of the St. Johns River. They account for the location of the Christmas Tree. They even have mock social media posts and merch featuring the sculpture.

I genuinely appreciate how these guys swung for the fences and immersed themselves so deeply in the process and came back with something so thoughtful, appropriate, and non-generic for the space.

Let's not get heartburn when we find ourselves in the $50 million range.

Call me an optimist, but I think of all of the projects downtown, the Landing is the one where it's going to be easiest to get public buy-in for something worthy of the space. I'd hope that we'd be willing to spend whatever necessary to get this space right. Worst thing we could do is cheap out on it. I also think there would be a real opportunity to fundraise and get corporate sponsorship for the central art piece.

heights unknown

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Re: DIA wants the Landing to start with a park
« Reply #123 on: June 25, 2021, 11:46:11 AM »
I definitely like Perkins & Will’s park design the most out of them all.

Even putting design preferences aside, if you look at the actual proposals, I don't know how anyone other than P+W can win this thing.

They came for blood with this one.

200-page proposal, built around the exact specs and requirements of the RFP; informed by community engagement and over 600 survey responses; centered on an iconic, Jacksonville-specific public art piece (as requested in the RFP); accounting for everything you could possibly ask for in a proposal from an environmental, topographical, landscaping, and programming perspective.

It's a massive file, but can't recommend looking through the Powerpoint deck enough.

They map the currents of the St. Johns River. They account for the location of the Christmas Tree. They even have mock social media posts and merch featuring the sculpture.

I genuinely appreciate how these guys swung for the fences and immersed themselves so deeply in the process and came back with something so thoughtful, appropriate, and non-generic for the space.

Let's not get heartburn when we find ourselves in the $50 million range.

Call me an optimist, but I think of all of the projects downtown, the Landing is the one where it's going to be easiest to get public buy-in for something worthy of the space. I'd hope that we'd be willing to spend whatever necessary to get this space right. Worst thing we could do is cheap out on it. I also think there would be a real opportunity to fundraise and get corporate sponsorship for the central art piece.
Yeah, but it costs too much. And Jacksonville doesn't like to spend money, and when it does, it either doesn't spend it the right way or spend it wrongfully. I Aope they pick Agency.
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Charles Hunter

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Re: DIA wants the Landing to start with a park
« Reply #124 on: June 25, 2021, 12:12:27 PM »
heights - What is it you like about the Agency proposal over the other two?  If it just cost, then the 'best' solution is to leave the space as it is today - no capital cost, and minimal O&M cost.

Ken_FSU

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Re: DIA wants the Landing to start with a park
« Reply #125 on: June 25, 2021, 12:52:19 PM »
Not gonna lie, totally smitten with this public art concept.

Checks all the boxes for me personally.

Art is obviously subjective, does anyone actively dislike it?
































fieldafm

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Re: DIA wants the Landing to start with a park
« Reply #126 on: June 25, 2021, 12:53:08 PM »
After more review of these plans, I think all will be a lot more expensive than advertised. Especially the Perkins & Will one. That Jax structure alone will likely end up consuming the lion's share, if not all, of the conceptual cost estimate provided. There's also some complex engineering involved with some of the aspects of these proposals like the recreation of marsh like conditions that will end up raising the prices once they really dive into design.

The numbers expressed remind me of the estimates being tossed out for the Emerald Trail during the initial stakeholder committee meetings. I thought the consulting planner was pulling numbers out of his ass because in the real world projects that I have been involved with, the cost back then were nearly twice as high. As time went on and the conceptual unknowns became knowns, the cost did dramatically increase and that increase was a lot more than material costs going up. Much of it was just starting off with totally unrealistic estimates. Btw, the same thing applies to JTA's U2C.

Even with the estimates produced to date, the range makes these apples and oranges (i.e. yes, a $30 million project should be better than a $15 million one). I hope the selection committee and city will take all this into account and be prepared to set aside the proper funds needed to construct and maintain a first class space. Let's not get heartburn when we find ourselves in the $50 million range.

Setting aside the proposed building on the PAD site (which as envisioned, could probably top $80mm  by itself)... I think the Perkins & Will plan would be more in the range of $65mm-$85mm with value engineering, and with annual operating and maintenance costs in the $5mm range.  That $65-85mm figure doesn't include the unrealistic marsh creation.

Another very important point to make as far as timelines- COJ has just started down the legal process to take back Sisters City plaza from Mainstreet Capital Partners.  All of these plans are based on the City taking back possession of Sisters City Plaza and subsequently realigning Hogan/Water/Independent Drive in order to create a larger site (and potential PAD site).  It took COJ more than 4 years to go through the process of taking back the East parking parcel from Sleiman (COJ lost that ruling, btw).  Courts currently have pretty sizeable backlogs due to the pandemic.  I think you are talking a minimum two years just to get a sense of whether that parcel is even in play.


For perspective, the price tag for all of the bulkhead work along the Northbank Riverwalk from CSX to Berkman is now well over $50mm.  Additional perspective comes from the recently completed St Pete Pier Park, which had a price tag of about $3.6mm/acre.
https://www.thejaxsonmag.com/article/a-virtual-tour-of-the-new-st-pete-pier/
« Last Edit: June 25, 2021, 12:55:16 PM by fieldafm »

fieldafm

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Re: DIA wants the Landing to start with a park
« Reply #127 on: June 25, 2021, 12:53:56 PM »
As an aside, Dupont will be releasing their draft plans for the Shipyards space today.


fieldafm

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Re: DIA wants the Landing to start with a park
« Reply #128 on: June 25, 2021, 12:59:58 PM »
I think the Perkins & Will art piece certainly exceeded what the DIA specifically wanted. It is very nice.

I would prefer it to say 'Bold City' instead of 'Jax', but that's likely much harder to script out legibly.  With the Shipyards/Met Park proposals, these proposals on Lenny's Lawn and the Friendship Fountain proposals... you are talking what would approach North of $200mm in public funding along the riverfront... which would unquestionably live up to the moniker of the 'Bold New City of the South'

fieldafm

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Re: DIA wants the Landing to start with a park
« Reply #129 on: June 25, 2021, 01:01:06 PM »
One more point... there is an existing company in town that REALLY wants to build an office building on one of those PAD sites. 

CityLife

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Re: DIA wants the Landing to start with a park
« Reply #130 on: June 25, 2021, 01:12:48 PM »
Not gonna lie, totally smitten with this public art concept.

Checks all the boxes for me personally.

Art is obviously subjective, does anyone actively dislike it?

It's pretty hard to dislike it. I posted years ago that Jax should do something similar to Amsterdam with the name Jax as an iconic place to take a photo downtown...but never even conceived that something like this could be pulled off. It's beautiful and actually BOLD.


Jason

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Re: DIA wants the Landing to start with a park
« Reply #131 on: June 25, 2021, 01:20:39 PM »
Perkins & Will = WOW!!!!!

They can use any of the other proposals but with the "JAX" art and it would be a win for me. 

Ken_FSU

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Re: DIA wants the Landing to start with a park
« Reply #132 on: June 25, 2021, 01:50:33 PM »
Hope we make the right decision and don’t just automatically pick the one that best fits into the city’s scant $15 million budget.

Worries me a bit that the decision is going to be fairly unilateral.

We describe the decision of what to do with the Landing as generational, but literally only two people are scoring the proposals and selecting a winner - Lori Boyer (DIA) and Daryl Joseph (Parks and Rec).

For something this important, I almost wish they’d have a window for public voting and use said public sentiment as one of the variables in the scoring rubric.

thelakelander

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Re: DIA wants the Landing to start with a park
« Reply #133 on: June 25, 2021, 02:15:45 PM »
That's the rough part that they'll have to address. If Agency knew the budget was $30 million, would aspects of their design change? Anyone know what the parameters of the competition were and if a $15 million budget was one of them?
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jaxlongtimer

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Re: DIA wants the Landing to start with a park
« Reply #134 on: June 25, 2021, 02:36:16 PM »
It's pretty hard to dislike it. I posted years ago that Jax should do something similar to Amsterdam with the name Jax as an iconic place to take a photo downtown...but never even conceived that something like this could be pulled off. It's beautiful and actually BOLD.



CityLife, you read my mind with this post.  I actually have a picture of myself and wife with the Amsterdam sign.  So many people want pictures with it all day long that it's almost impossible to see the full sign at once.  I note that people are bundled up for cold in the picture you have posted and it looks late in the day so probably off-season and off-day for the hordes of tourists.

For those who have never visited, that's the amazing and immense Rijksmuseum, the Netherlands' version of the Lourve or Metropolitan Museum of Art, in the background.  It is among the greatest art museums in the world and features the largest collection of Dutch masters including Rembrandt.  Adjacent is another great museum, the Van Gogh, which features the largest collection of his paintings in the world. 

Love Amsterdam and look forward to, hopefully, a return visit.  Another city that Jax leaders could learn much from in terms of city planning, historic preservation, mass transit, resiliency, etc.