Author Topic: The Shipyards & Metro Park 2020  (Read 5480 times)

Charles Hunter

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Re: The Shipyards & Metro Park 2020
« Reply #30 on: November 13, 2020, 12:34:27 AM »
Agreed. Heck, it could even be put on Catherine Street - across Bay from the original location, but on the same street.

marcuscnelson

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Re: The Shipyards & Metro Park 2020
« Reply #31 on: November 13, 2020, 01:25:23 AM »
It looks like 2 cruise ships inverted to form a boomerang or "V."

The Jags have been in love with this ship-like design language since the first set of Shipyards renderings way back when.

Here’s a video explaining the philosophy behind the design:

https://youtu.be/avaSdC0QOUM

No one else laughed at this, and I just want to say you deserved kudos.
So, to the young people fighting in this movement for change, here is my charge: march in the streets, protest, run for school committee or city council or the state legislature. And win. - Ed Markey

marcuscnelson

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Re: The Shipyards & Metro Park 2020
« Reply #32 on: November 13, 2020, 01:51:14 AM »
I'd argue the more separate attractions clustered together, the better. If it were moved to the Shipyards, it would actually be closer to its original Catherine Street location.

Interesting to see how in just a few short months, the idea of a museum district of sorts wedged between whatever Berkman 2 becomes and the new Metro/Veterans Park (assuming NPS approval) has come together very quickly.

Between MOSH Genesis, the Orleck, the Fire Museum, and whether AquaJax ever figures things out, that seems like a pretty dense cultural space right there on Bay Street. And honestly, I welcome it.

If only City Hall was competent, it'd be nice to see some real nimble effort towards making something like this work. Start planning the new park, getting estimates down, some kind of "Museum District coming soon" campaign. If JTA had just proposed a normal Skyway replacement three years ago instead of this AV adventure, they probably could have been working on the Stadium expansion already, and a stop here could have been a great way to tie into that.
So, to the young people fighting in this movement for change, here is my charge: march in the streets, protest, run for school committee or city council or the state legislature. And win. - Ed Markey

minder

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Re: The Shipyards & Metro Park 2020
« Reply #33 on: November 13, 2020, 04:12:33 AM »
Any word on timeframes or funding?

In terms of timing, Lamping claims that Shad Khan wants to break ground as soon as the legal hurdles with Met Park are cleared. He claimed that the Four Seasons could conceivably be starting at the same time as Lot J.
Bring on the continual downsizing and eventual groundbreaking of the Hampton Inn in 2027!

Lostwave

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Re: The Shipyards & Metro Park 2020
« Reply #34 on: November 13, 2020, 07:40:10 AM »
Its interesting to me that they officially now say it will be a Four Seasons.  Up until now all presentations I have seen called this the "Luxury Hotel and Residences" no mention of four seasons.  They must have come to an agreement with four seasons finally.  Also, the medical center will mostly be for NFL uses.  Not sure if it will be publicly available or not.

Ken_FSU

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Re: The Shipyards & Metro Park 2020
« Reply #35 on: November 13, 2020, 08:54:30 AM »
It looks like 2 cruise ships inverted to form a boomerang or "V."

The Jags have been in love with this ship-like design language since the first set of Shipyards renderings way back when.

Here’s a video explaining the philosophy behind the design:

https://youtu.be/avaSdC0QOUM

No one else laughed at this, and I just want to say you deserved kudos.


Thanks Marcus!

Appreciate you dude!  8)

Papa33

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Re: The Shipyards & Metro Park 2020
« Reply #36 on: November 13, 2020, 09:11:05 AM »
So yesterday, the Daily Record was using the phrase "wants to build".  Today, it is  "project" and  "plan".  Words matter for PR purposes.  Wonder if someone called the Daily Record to have it edited/changed.

I agree with minder, this time next year (or maybe in 2027 as he suggests), it'll be downsized and a Hampton Inn (not that there is anything wrong with Hampton Inn).

MusicMan

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Re: The Shipyards & Metro Park 2020
« Reply #37 on: November 13, 2020, 09:46:39 AM »
A shiny new Four Seasons Hotel between the jail and Talleyrand?  What has Four Seasons said about this? Khan should buy the Omni.

Todd_Parker

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Re: The Shipyards & Metro Park 2020
« Reply #38 on: November 13, 2020, 11:02:04 AM »
At this point, Jacksonville will be lucky to get a Four Seasons....Total Landscaping.

Ken_FSU

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Re: The Shipyards & Metro Park 2020
« Reply #39 on: November 13, 2020, 11:41:32 AM »
I totally get the arguments against Lot J from a public incentives perspective, but I have a harder time wrapping my head around the continued narrative that the Jags aren't committed to Jacksonville. I totally respect the City Council for performing their due diligence in terms of viability, but there's something to be said for the fact that Shad Khan and Cordish have enough faith in the Jacksonville market to float and privately finance huge portions of things like the proposed Jacksonville Live! district and a Four Seasons/medical center at the Shipyards.

Who else is showing that same level of faith in our market?

Shad Khan has fielded a dreadful football team, and bungled a lot of communication in regards to things like the London game, but if I was the Jags, I'd be a little insulted by the "what's to stop Shad Khan from moving the team in 2029" talk from certain City Council members and the demands for a lease extension based on the Lot J project. Wayne Weaver trusted Shad Khan enough to sell him the franchise without a no-move clause. The penalty to break the lease and move the team to Los Angeles would have been a rounding error for the guy, and he would have made billions. I've got no issue exercising that same trust in the Jags, if we do move forward with any of these projects. NFL (and Jacksonville) precedent is to tie the lease extension to the stadium upgrades, which genuinely are needed for one of the NFL's oldest stadiums.

Do people really think that the Jags have an evil plan to pump $200 million into the first phase of Lot J, and $300 million into a Four Seasons, only to abandon the market in 8 years? That's a pretty shitty evil plan.

I also don't think it's reasonable to suggest that the Four Seasons thing is imagined by the Jags. Shad Khan has been ruffling hoteliers' feathers for years talking about how he wants to bring a luxury hotel to the riverfront, he owns a Four Seasons in Toronto, and he's been going back and forth with the DIA on it for years under the assumption it would be a Four Seasons. I don't think a guy who takes Edgewood Bakery to court over a few hundred thousand dollars is going to be dumping millions of dollars and years of life into Four Seasons renders just to trick the DIA into giving him a $12.5 million REV grant.

Nor does said gentleman seem the type to build a Four Seasons with the intention of flipping it and abandoning the market.

When we can't even get developers to commit to building mid-rise residential on the river, I'm not sure what developer or investor is going to swoop in and buy a Four Seasons Jacksonville anyway.

100% agree with getting the best deal we can as a city, or turning down the deal altogether if we don't feel it's the right investment, but it really is frustrating to see certain City Council members poisoning the well in terms of the discussion and making it more antagonistic then it needs to be with the baseless conspiracies about the Jags lack of commitment to the market.

Again though, all of this should be wrapped up in a single discussion, packaged with stadium upgrades, tied to a lease extension and a floor on home games in Jacksonville.
« Last Edit: November 13, 2020, 11:44:18 AM by Ken_FSU »

marcuscnelson

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Re: The Shipyards & Metro Park 2020
« Reply #40 on: November 13, 2020, 11:44:44 AM »
A shiny new Four Seasons Hotel between the jail and Talleyrand?  What has Four Seasons said about this? Khan should buy the Omni.

I would presume that their brand being on this likely means that they're okay with it, but of course I could be wrong. It's not about being between the jail and Talleyrand, it's about being across the street from the football stadium.

Why would Khan buy the Omni? That's in actual downtown, and if there's one thing he's been consistent about, it's that all he wants to build is within the vicinity of the stadium. This new plan is even pulling all the ideas closer to it.
So, to the young people fighting in this movement for change, here is my charge: march in the streets, protest, run for school committee or city council or the state legislature. And win. - Ed Markey

marcuscnelson

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Re: The Shipyards & Metro Park 2020
« Reply #41 on: November 13, 2020, 12:02:44 PM »
^ Some good points. I think the issue in a lot of cases is less about whether he actively wants to leave and more about the sense of jerking around it feels like he's done. I can't speak for Council, but at least here some of the attitude has been about the sheer public cost of this, at a time when we're not investing in a lot of things we should, for something outside of what is traditionally considered downtown. Top that off with the London game(s) and people get on edge. I mentioned in another thread that we've probably already spent over $100m up to now, and wasted years of effort between Daily's Place, the Hart Ramps, the Landing, killing the Convention Center, and a litany of other projects. It's already been blasted on the news that Lot J is the most expensive public investment in a single project in our city's history. Curry's repeated dives into questionable behavior have probably also poisoned the well, and made it hard for people to trust that we're getting the best possible deal here.

Now, we're not trying to be some of the people on Facebook I've seen, waving white flags and saying Jacksonville will always be a podunk town that doesn't matter. But this is a hard bargain at a time like this, and it often feels like the Jags aren't being completely honest with us. One thing that's also come up is how we've offered no one else this much money. If we put out a big campaign saying, "we'll give you over $300m to build two hotels, some apartments, and some other stuff" I can't imagine we wouldn't get some interest. Maybe a little less, because of the Convention Center/Ford on Bay debacles, but still.

Again though, all of this should be wrapped up in a single discussion, packaged with stadium upgrades, tied to a lease extension and a floor on home games in Jacksonville.

Very true. I wonder if it'd be worth putting things on hold long enough to get the numbers for the stadium upgrades and actually make it a single referendum package. If we're going to spend over half a billion dollars, we should get to actually decide if we're going to spend that much.
So, to the young people fighting in this movement for change, here is my charge: march in the streets, protest, run for school committee or city council or the state legislature. And win. - Ed Markey

downtownbrown

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Re: The Shipyards & Metro Park 2020
« Reply #42 on: November 13, 2020, 12:38:39 PM »
Ken is 100% correct.  Ankle biters should step back and look at the basic components of our situation. 1) there are no other offers, no other players, no one else with real skin in the game besides Khan.  2) As Lamping made clear, these historic interest rates are a gift from the gods which create the BEST POSSIBLE development environment we ever have seen, and ever will see.  3) Khan was right years ago when he explained the relative level of "mojo" in Jacksonville.

For small minded council members I would advise that they either lead, follow, or get out of the way.  I'm hoping they choose #3.

MusicMan

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Re: The Shipyards & Metro Park 2020
« Reply #43 on: November 13, 2020, 01:27:08 PM »
There's a term in real estate (and other fields) called "deferred maintenance".  It refers to items that should have been done 'already'.
Like a leaky roof, or 20 year old HVAC....  The downtown CBD has easily $200 million in deferred maintenance. So my objection is about putting $200 million into the stadium parking lot (effectively one city block) and turning the "deferred maintenance" that plagues Downtown Jacksonville into "permanently deferred maintenance."  I don't see how, if the COJ commits all these resources to Lot J, any of the other long wish list of projects that have been proposed (from McCoys Creek restoration to developing any of the 'grass fields' we have) will ever get done.   

Berkman II and San Marco Publix are 16 and 20 years in the making, and still folks are waiting.......

thelakelander

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Re: The Shipyards & Metro Park 2020
« Reply #44 on: November 13, 2020, 02:03:55 PM »
The realist in me says a few things:

1. This Four Seasons thing is so far off, at this point it's just as likely to happen as the convention center at Metropolitan Park that didn't. Don't let the nice renderings fool you. I said this years ago with Shipyards proposals before Khan and I said it with the first set Iguana came out with five years ago. I also said then that Lot J would not open before Curry's term is up. Part of this stuff deals with if there is (or isn't) a market for the product. The other side is that these things take time to materialize but what you see in a master development plan rarely comes to fruition at the end of the day. Especially in Jax from a historical perspective. At this point, I expect it to change again a year or two from now.


2. The proposed components of Lot J and Metropolitan Park won't cost as much to build as what has been reported in the news. Based on comparable recently built development in other cities, not even close, unless there's some serious waste going on. Everything still looks highly conceptual. From a design perspective, hopefully when they reach that point, they won't be exempt from DDRB review.


3. I really hate the narrative that there are no others willing to invest in DT Jax because its a false one. The reality is if we offered to cover +50% of any private development project's cost with public funds, we'd have a big increase in projects being proposed and built all throughout downtown. We just has a similar scenario play out with JWB and Vestcor in LaVilla a year ago. If we had a transparent and publicly supported long term vision, with the political will to fund it into fruition, we'd attract a lot more players than we can imagine today.


4. No NFL team is agreeing to a long term lease to get public funding for something as insignificant as what's in the components of Lot J. While we should definitely vet the incentives package and ensure we're getting the most bang for our buck, it's a big stretch to imagine any NFL team signing a long term lease because a Buffalo Wild Wings and a couple of hundred apartment units would be funded to be located next door to their stadium.


I truly believe that projects like this need to be analyzed into how they play into the larger vision (if we had one) of what we want the urban core to become. At this point, we're still too piecemealed in our approach to planning the area the DIA and COJ calls Downtown Jacksonville. It would be really interesting to see how what the Jags are proposing, aligns or doesn't align with the future of the Shipyards or A. Philip Randolph once again becoming a vibrant walking and attractive commercial district in the Eastside. Or how the Emerald Trail and adaptive reuse of the buildings in the Northbank add up into the picture. Or to have an honest discussion about the role, costs and constraints of the U2C to even support some of these dreams.

IMO, Jax should toss all these DT dreams into the mix (Lot J and Metropolitan Park included), figure out how much time and money it will cost to make them happen, if the market can even support this stuff, and then have a serious grown up discussion about what it takes to secure the funds to make the dreams a reality, sooner rather than two or three generations down the road.

Btw, we do have at least two mid-rise residentials project under construction on the river in downtown (Southbank and Brooklyn). The Southbank tower would have been taller but we fought it. So despite ourselves, we do have some stuff going on. Just imagine what it could be if all development barriers and obstacles were removed.
"A man who views the world the same at 50 as he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life.” - Muhammad Ali