Author Topic: Talking to Anti-Transit People  (Read 716 times)

marcuscnelson

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Talking to Anti-Transit People
« on: November 06, 2020, 02:13:56 PM »
Hey everyone, wanted to post a conversation I'm having on Nextdoor and get some thoughts on how to respond to it, or perhaps some critique if my previous responses were inaccurate.
For context, this is in a thread in St. Johns County that was initially about Durbin Park. Steve Wilkes here mentioned the new JTA Express stop and I guess it was off to the races after that.

Quote from: Brittany Smith
Horrible new store choices. Is anyone else completely disappointed in the horrible stores that are being built? Do we need anymore Wendy’s or goodwills? Why is there not any nice stores in our area, all of the new stuff is crap! We need target, chick-Fil-a, steakhouses or something not the same crappy stuff 3 miles from each other. I would have thought they would have put stores that were nice due to our area. Burlington and Ross suck, poorly stocked.

Quote from: Steve Wilkes
Why all this talk about Target. They carry practically the same stuff Walmart does at higher prices. All of their clothes are made in China, with just a different name brand. And at least Walmart is American owned. But I do agree that Walmart doesn’t attract the best of people shopping there. I mean they put a bus stop right beside there. I believe it’s the only bus stop in the St. John’s area

Quote from: Marcus Nelson
How else are people supposed to get there without a car (and tags, and insurance, and gas, etc)?

Quote from: Steve Wilkes
@Marcus Nelson Wouldn’t know. Have always worked extremely hard to have those things.

Quote from: Michelle Borton
Wow, all kinds of people use public transportation for all kinds of reasons.  It could also possibly be what is providing transportation for some of the employees at the stores in that area.

Quote from: Christina Bailey
@Marcus Nelson i was disappointed there wasn't public transportation here. It's good there's a bus stop there,  but there should be one maybe on 13.

Quote from: Marcus Nelson
@Christina Bailey there’s a small bus system, https://sunshinebus.net/ But residents are very resistant to funding it.

A commuter rail service by JTA has been proposed between Downtown Jacksonville and St. Augustine, but it’s been sitting on the table for over a decade now.

Quote from: Steve Wilkes
@Marcus Nelson the reality is, that public transportation is always in the red. So it is taxpayer funded transportation for people that don’t have a license or a car. And I do not agree with tax payers paying for transportation of others. People should pay for their own transportation. If you can not afford a vehicle, or choose not to buy one, it is not the taxpayers responsibility to provide you with transportation. The taxpayers fund enough already. That’s why it is generally not wanted by people in certain areas. And statistics show that wherever there is public transportation, the crime rate rises. But in today’s world, facts like that escape people for some reason.

Quote from: Marcus Nelson
@Steve Wilkes Let me answer all of that with a question, Steve.

When you get up in the morning and take I-95 to work (or whatever highway you use), does that generate a profit? I don't mean whatever you do for work, I mean whether the highway itself is in the black. Chances are, absolutely not, no matter what highway you take.

Right now, everyone who pays taxes at all in this country is already paying for the transportation of others. You and I pay for I-4 Ultimate in Orlando, state highways across Florida, and through the US DOT, interstates all over the country that we will never see nor drive on.

Pretending that buses and trains or other methods of transit are all unsustainable, while the hundreds of billions of dollars we've spent on highway construction somehow aren't, doesn't really add up and isn't at all consistent.

So either you do support taxpayers paying for the transportation of others, just only for roads for some reason, or you also believe public funding of roads in general is wrong. To me, it doesn't make much sense when we've seen time and time again that public investment in clean, affordable transportation creates more economic opportunity for more people, which ultimately benefits all of us. We all do better when the poorest among us do better.

Quote from: Steve Wilkes
@Marcus Nelson when you buy gas, there is a tax for roads. When you renew your tags. A large portion of the fee is for use of roads. When every visitor to this state buys gas, they are helping pay for roads. Any government agency is not there for profit. That is in fact against the law. The Highway administration breaks even by the fees and taxes. Public transportation does not even bring in enough money from fares to pay for the salaries of its employees. So public transportation needs funds from other agencies to operate. That is my issue. They either have to raise the fares high enough to pay for all of public transportation expenses, or needs to not exist. And the people that use public transportation can take Uber or a taxi and pay for their own transportation expense. The days of taxpayers paying for others transportation, food , babies, housing, and healthcare should end. You need to take care of yourself and your own responsibilities. I as a tax payer shouldn’t. And Marcus, I don’t mean you as an individual. You may work, pay taxes, and take care of your own responsibilities. And that is what this country is about.
So, to the young people fighting in this movement for change, here is my charge: march in the streets, protest, run for school committee or city council or the state legislature. And win. - Ed Markey

thelakelander

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Re: Talking to Anti-Transit People
« Reply #1 on: November 06, 2020, 03:38:14 PM »
I work in the transportation field. Roads do not pay for themselves and people buying gas, paying for tags, etc. doesn't lead to an even break either. They need more tax money and public subsidies than public transportation.
"A man who views the world the same at 50 as he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life.” - Muhammad Ali

Ken_FSU

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Re: Talking to Anti-Transit People
« Reply #2 on: November 06, 2020, 03:47:54 PM »
The guy seems less anti-transit, and more anti-minority.

With some xenophobia thrown in for fun.

"Doesn't attract the best of people" is about as thinly veiled as it gets.

As is, "I mean they put a bus stop right beside there" and the fact that he beams with pride when talking about how few bus stops there are in the St. Johns area.

As is the assertion that "working hard" somehow solves all of the deeply-rooted socioeconomic woes and inequalities in both our country and our city.

As is the "transportation, food , babies, housing, and healthcare" bit during a global pandemic that has absolutely crushed the types of people who rely on public transportation in the city.

Can't reason with people like this, who were born on second base and think they hit a double.

I admire you fighting the good fight and agree with your points, but probably best to walk away and save your braincells.


bl8jaxnative

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Re: Talking to Anti-Transit People
« Reply #3 on: November 07, 2020, 10:09:56 AM »
I work in the transportation field. Roads do not pay for themselves and people buying gas, paying for tags, etc. doesn't lead to an even break either. They need more tax money and public subsidies than public transportation.

They do not _need_ it.  We've structured the system in a way that doesn't allow for users to directly pay for what they use.  The money is there.  Government just insists it gets funneled through them first so they can take their cutSSS.

bl8jaxnative

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Re: Talking to Anti-Transit People
« Reply #4 on: November 07, 2020, 10:30:12 AM »

"Doesn't attract the best of people" is about as thinly veiled as it gets.


Driving doesn't attract the best of people, either.

Keep in mind that there's criminogenic design elements in this world.  Transit does open up transportation options for everyone, including the shitbags.  It doesn't mean we don't do it.  Just be mindful of the shift.


And it's hard to picture what sort of shift will come from a bus that runs from dwntwn JAX to Durbin Park + nowhere NEFL ( aka St. Johns govt center ) shifting anything.   Never assume that criminals are thinking.   Most tend to be impulsive.   That said, it's hard to imagine what sort of impulsive shit bag is going to sit on a bus for an hour to get to Durbin Park to go break into cars.  No one lives around there.  what are they going ot do, what another 2 miles down the road to snoop around?   And whatever they do, they have to wait another 8 - 9 hours for sole bus to go back north. 

Charles Hunter

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Re: Talking to Anti-Transit People
« Reply #5 on: November 08, 2020, 12:58:10 AM »
Back a number of years ago, FDOT wanted to put sidewalks along the new extension of Baymeadows Road, between Southside Blvd. and I-295. Residents of Deerwood objected because they feared it would increase crime.  Same thing happened in Ortega when FDOT put a sidewalk along Roosevelt.

Uh yeah. The Bad Guys (registered trademark) are going to walk along the sidewalk, see your home, break in and carry your 80" flatscreen down the sidewalk.

marcuscnelson

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Re: Talking to Anti-Transit People
« Reply #6 on: November 08, 2020, 02:34:28 AM »
Can't reason with people like this, who were born on second base and think they hit a double.

I admire you fighting the good fight and agree with your points, but probably best to walk away and save your braincells.

I took your advice, Ken. Feels bad, having to worry about however many people are out there who think no one should get help, ever, but I realize I probably won't fix that in one conversation.

Back a number of years ago, FDOT wanted to put sidewalks along the new extension of Baymeadows Road, between Southside Blvd. and I-295. Residents of Deerwood objected because they feared it would increase crime.  Same thing happened in Ortega when FDOT put a sidewalk along Roosevelt.

I can't help but ponder the specific mentality behind intentionally advocating to make one's community as inaccessible and hostile as possible to people who can't or won't spend thousands of dollars on a personal automobile out of some strange sense of "preventing crime".

I mean, I realize it's probably some combination of racism and classism, but still.
So, to the young people fighting in this movement for change, here is my charge: march in the streets, protest, run for school committee or city council or the state legislature. And win. - Ed Markey

Adam12

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Re: Talking to Anti-Transit People
« Reply #7 on: November 09, 2020, 09:37:04 PM »
I agree that it doesn't do any good to argue with people who are ideologically opposed to or in favor of something. First of all, it's a waste of time for both sides because you're not going to change their mind and they aren't going to change yours. Second, you'll probably do more harm than good if the person thinks you're trying to "brainwash" them (i.e. change their mind). Once they feel like they're under attack, they get emotional and see you as the enemy, not just someone they disagree with.

So I frame these discussions in terms of choice. I like to ride the bus because I hate driving (I actually dread it), I like walking, and I think the bus system deserves my business. And I vote for candidates who support public transportation because I want it funded better. I'd rather sit in traffic on a bus where I can safely use my phone and chat with other passengers instead of sitting in my car in traffic, alone, not enjoying whatever is on the radio. I'd really like to get rid of my car altogether. Other people are free to make their own choices, but I want to use transit and I want to live in a neighborhood that is designed to be walkable and transit-accessible.

Adam White

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Re: Talking to Anti-Transit People
« Reply #8 on: November 10, 2020, 07:05:59 AM »
I've got to be honest here - every time I see this thread, I read it as "Talking to Anti-Trans People". That's a whole different thread...
“If you're going to play it out of tune, then play it out of tune properly.”

marcuscnelson

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Re: Talking to Anti-Transit People
« Reply #9 on: November 10, 2020, 11:09:47 AM »
That's somewhat of a more contentious topic.
So, to the young people fighting in this movement for change, here is my charge: march in the streets, protest, run for school committee or city council or the state legislature. And win. - Ed Markey

bl8jaxnative

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Re: Talking to Anti-Transit People
« Reply #10 on: November 11, 2020, 11:21:38 AM »

Not as titillating as the Ant Trans People thread though.  :)