2020 Congressional District 4 Debate

[marcuscnelson]

https://www.news4jax.com/news/politics/2020/10/14/rutherford-deegan-square-off-in-only-televised-debate/

U.S. Rep. John Rutherford, R-Fla., and Democratic challenger Donna Deegan squared off Wednesday evening in the only televised debate in the 4th Congressional District race.

The race for the 4th Congressional District, which covers Nassau and parts of Duval and St. Johns counties, pits Rutherford, a former Jacksonville sheriff who is running for reelection after first taking office in 2017, against Deegan, a former local TV news personality and breast cancer survivor who has gone on to raise awareness and funding for breast cancer research through her annual marathon.

During the debate, Deegan and Rutherford both touched on the coronavirus pandemic, health care, the economy and social justice.

[JeffreyS]

Donna was great. I hope enough people watched to make a difference. Her lines about Rutherford’s disingenuous support of background checks for guns he can’t ever vote for and particularly his nonstarter position of high risk pools for preexisting conditions seemed to successfully expose his forked tung.   

[jaxlongtimer]

Deegan was impressive and really appeared to me to trample over Rutherford who's rationale for staying in office seemed to be continuing to be a Trump puppet.  I didn't hear him stand for much more than whatever Trump wants, he is there to deliver.  Deegan seemed to have a real agenda for improving lives on the First Coast and at least trying to proactively tackle serious issues.

Make sure you click on this link to watch the replay of the full debate and judge for yourself:
https://www.news4jax.com/news/politics/2020/10/14/rutherford-deegan-square-off-in-only-televised-debate/

I just don't understand people who vote a straight ticket and not the candidate.  And, we wonder how we get some of the low quality elected officials.  The consequences of the simplistic minds of, and/or uninformed, voting public is really scary.  I can't believe the number of people who keep up with so little news that they are "shocked" to know that a hurricane headed our way for days is only hours away by the time they "wake up" to it.  If they don't even track severe weather impacting their lives directly, imagine how little they know about everything else going on around them or how they might fully understand what their elected officials are really up to so they can be held accountable.  This is how we get buffoons or, worse, dangerous people in power.

[bl8jaxnative]

there's nothign realistic about Deegan's claims about stopping covid19.

[marcuscnelson]

Would you mind elaborating?

[bl8jaxnative]

Deegan uses the "follow the science" rhetoric to claim that if things were done differently Covid19 wouldn't be an issue.  If confronted they'd claim that they never said that no one would die.  But they're more than happy to profit off of that implecation, that somehow there's some magical policy out there which would lead to different results.

That's not how viruses work.

That's not how humans work.

That's not how policy works.

There may be policy that would lead to better outcomes.  Ironically someone like Deegan who keeps invoking "science" has not meaningful evidence for this.   In fact, as we've seen in the last month, the evidence is counter to the claim.   Those other policies that they followed in the EU and were held up high have lead to worse, not better outcomes when compared to the US.

[MusicMan]

Only one or two nations have had a worse outcome than the US.  Our peer nations have had much better outcomes.

[Snaketoz]

As long as we are led by people like our current president and senate, money is the only factor to choose.  The rush to reopen has only lengthened the time to recover.  Sometimes you have to swallow the bitter pill to get the needed result.  In the long run, had we had a more strict quarantine mandate we wouldn't have this yo-yo result we're beginning to see, especially in the colder states.  Science over politics!

[tufsu1]

Those other policies that they followed in the EU and were held up high have lead to worse, not better outcomes when compared to the US.

The countries of Europe have about 750 million people combined - and are now averaging around 100,000 cases per day in the second wave.
The US has 330 million people and is now averaging 60,000-70,000 cases per day.

[simms3]

Those other policies that they followed in the EU and were held up high have lead to worse, not better outcomes when compared to the US.

The countries of Europe have about 750 million people combined - and are now averaging around 100,000 cases per day in the second wave.
The US has 330 million people and is now averaging 60,000-70,000 cases per day.

Not to nitpick your numbers, but the Eurozone, which you're right, does have about that many people, saw the following new case/death loads:

Today: 150K/1,780
Yesterday: 138K/1,068
2 Days Ago: 145K/956

The United States' numbers over the same period:

Today: 54K/798
Yesterday: 57K/442
2 Days Ago: 49K/477

So on a 3-day rolling basis, Europe is tripling our new case load and doubling our deaths.

I don't think we are doing so badly on that [coronavirus] front.  If we want to talk about economic measures, we are doing significantly better than our European peers, and that is with some of our largest and most important states still largely locked down.  I can't stand the idea of looking at the coronavirus in a vacuum.  There is simply so much more to life than the fear of death from one disease who's death rate has come drastically down.  Being open and free to make your own decisions regarding your own precautions is far more important to me.  The nanny state mentality has me pulling my hair out.

My family on my mother's side is Swedish and it has been interesting talking with them about the pandemic and how they tackled it.  Of course, conveniently, the leftists in this country who normally LOVE Sweden and everything it is about are silent at best and critical of its decisions to remain open and free this whole time.  I wish we had stayed open and free!

[jaxlongtimer]

^I understand your perspective but consider the following:

(1) As you note, when this started, fatality rates were higher. 
(2) As a new virus in humans, little to nothing was known about it's impact on those infected.  The only information was what was obviously observed which was significant death rates and illness and being highly contagious.
(3) Being free for yourself and impacting others severely needs to be balanced.  If everyone would wear masks, socially distance, wash hands, etc. maybe we could be more "free."  Unfortunately, a significant portion of the population is selfish and uncaring endangering those around them.
(4) Due to politicization by our president, information and recommendations regarding COVID have been muddled causing confusion and fear in the population at large.
(5) This administration has prevented the US from having a coherent, thoughtful, clearly communicated, well coordinated and executed national plan for dealing with COVID, thus leaving it to thousands of overwhelmed local communities to figure out on their own how to respond and to do so with much less information and resources than available at the Federal level.  The wide range of "solutions" has only served to further divide us and sow mistrust as to the best way to proceed.

The sum total of the above is our reaction to COVID  in the US has been clumsy and remains an evolutionary process.  No one of any background or belief wants to quarantine, wear masks, social distance, etc. "for the fun of it."  We all want to get back to "normal" as soon as possible.

But, there is a significant portion of our population with preexisting conditions, aging, vulnerable genetics, etc. that demands that the rest of us show some respect for our neighbors, friends and family by making some interim sacrifices until this gets resolved with a vaccine, cure and/or effective treatments.  That doesn't mean giving up our freedoms but it does demand compromising our lifestyle for the common good (as we do regularly via our laws and regulations) by using best practices to avoid being a spreader to others around us.

If we would all work in unison to support the best practices (starting with everyone wearing masks in public spaces and avoiding creating "super-spreader" situations) for dealing with COVID, we would all be better off both with respect to our health and our freedom.  Unfortunately, we are not at that point up until now so continue to expect significant trade offs between our health and freedom concerns.

[tufsu1]

So on a 3-day rolling basis, Europe is tripling our new case load and doubling our deaths.

I don't think we are doing so badly on that [coronavirus] front. 

let's talk again in a week or two

As an example of the virus running rampant after summer activities, Israel had 9,000 cases in one day about five weeks ago. That would be like the US having 340,000. Their positivity rate was over 15%.

They went through a second stringent lockdown, and the results are encouraging. Their cases are down to 1100 a day and the positivity rate is down to 2.5%. The Israel exit strategy has multiple phases, each at least two weeks long, so they can track any flare-ups. 

[simms3]

jaxlongtimer and tufsu:

Ok let's talk.  Nothing will change my mind.

We live in the United States, where 50 states operate independently from one another.  Governors are free to do as they wish.  Just because NYC is having a heavy case load in one instance does not mean Montana should be locking down.  I am glad our president didn't "take over" any private companies in order to produce and distribute PPE, ventilators, and soon to be (hopefully) vaccine.  He did not need to, and our private sector really stepped up.  I am happy that Florida is open.  Those of us depending on that for income and livelihood are probably all in agreement.  I feel terrible for the states and cities still largely shut down!  Shame on those governors and mayors.  I'm sure the virus will clear out on November 4, though.

Furthermore, I believe that locking down is simply delaying the inevitable, as evidenced by the fact that every time a geographic area locks down and then reopens, cases spike.  We should be living as if this virus is here to stay and here for us to deal with.

Thirdly, I believe that death rate and hospitalization rates are FAR more important than case counts.  I had COVID and had minimal symptoms.  Most people I know who had it had zero symptoms (I had the flu simultaneously - the first case for Jacksonville of the year actually).  People are forgetting that a bad flu season can easily kill 50K-75K mostly elderly patients in a single winter.  We don't lock down for that.  Numbers wise, while every death is tragic, a few multiples of that, also mostly elderly, is not a sufficient reason to me to lock down the whole economy and deal with the significant repercussions of that.

I love my grandmother as much as anyone else and I am a kind-hearted person, but I deal in reality and logic.  The Democrats have proven themselves to be the party of lockdowns and COVID hysteria.  I am no fan of Rutherford, only because what has he done?  Not sure.  But I will vote for him this year simply because he has a R in front of his name and I have zero tolerance for what the Democrats have been doing or pushing for.  This will be the first time I am voting for Republicans in 10 years.

[jaxlongtimer]

Simms, just to be clear, you and all those you know always wear masks away from home, socially distance, and avoid creating superspreader events?

And, you are sure that all those you come in contact with are doing the same?  Further, when you are in enclosed spaces, you know that the air filtration systems are not further spreading COVID?

And, as a taxpayer, you don't mind paying for the extraordinary costs to our society to care for those unable to cover their medical expenses when they get COVID?  Or to pay higher insurance premiums if your health insurer needs to do the same?  Or paying for the long term health impacts many will experience for the rest of their lives?

And, you don't mind a lack of first responders who are not available due to having COVID, or worse, dying from COVID due to treating those who get COVID.  This also means when you have a medical need, hospitals and medical professionals may not be able to treat you appropriately impacting the health of you or your loved ones due to being flooded with COVID cases.

Equating the seasonal flu with COVID is a flawed comparison based on every report I have seen from scientists and doctors.  You are fortunate that your symptoms were mild (although you never know if you will experience side effects later in life as they are still evaluating that).  I suspect you are a younger person and believe you may be invincible.  Good for you.

As I stated earlier, no one wants a lock down.  But, on some level, it comes down to pay me now or pay me later.  I can tell you there are large numbers of our society that will not go out (self locking down) until they see a cure/treatment/vaccine and/or widespread compliance with best practices.  As a result, the economy will not return to full speed until we achieve that standard.  The sooner we address the issue the quicker we can also get back on track.

I don't get your comment about taking over companies.  I didn't see any particular party advocating that but did see discussion by many of all stripes about our dependency on China and other countries for protective masks and ventilators which did put the idea out there that U.S. companies might have to convert production to meet demand.  In the end, it looks like many did it voluntarily so it was never a sustainable issue.

You have also politicized the issue by saying it is D's vs R's.  That is exactly what's wrong with much of our problems today.  COVID doesn't care about politics.  As COVID is likely to spread faster in more densely populated areas such as cities, and most larger urban areas are led by D's, maybe they have to take steps a rural R leader doesn't need to impose. Many lock downs were implemented (by both R'sand D's) to "flatten the curve" so hospitals were not overwhelmed to the point where medical resources would fall far short of demand.  COVID also doesn't respect political boundaries, so when people travel, they can impact "clean" populations.  By example, most island societies, such as Hawaii and the Bahamas, have locked down and/or have very strict travel protocols that effectively make travel untenable for most.

Lastly, I wonder if your grandmother sees things the way you do regarding COVID.  I hope you stay healthy but you should respect that many do not share your approach and lack of concern for the spread of COVID.  That's why a significant majority of this country, regardless of party, believe the D's have a better plan to manage the situation than R's.

[simms3]

https://ourworldindata.org/mortality-risk-covid

Scroll around 60-70% down to a chart titled Coronavirus: Case Fatality Rates by Age.  In it you will see the case fatality rates for all the decades leading up to age 80+ in 4 countries (South Korea, Spain, China, and Italy).

It's 0-minimal until you get to 50-59.  For the age range 50-59, within these 4 countries, the fatality rate ranges from 0.4% to 1.3%.  That means at the 1.3% case fatality rate, of all KNOWN COVID cases in China in this age range, about 1/100 died.  It's a risk.  It's deadly.  But I still don't think that it's at the level that we need to shut down people's lives and lock up.

Once you get past this age range, you get to people who are generally retired or working less, already benefiting from fixed income such as social security, and who are going out to bars/clubs A LOT less.  They don't generally have school-aged children at home.  The list goes on of natural built-in risk mitigants.

To me it seems much more prudent to take this virus in stride, have confidence in our hospitals and pharma/biotech companies to develop treatments and perhaps that vaccine, and not spend our days worrying and freaking out.  For most of us, the statistics are on our side.  Very few people under the age of 50 have died from this thing, though many many many have caught it.

I can't stand how wimpy we have become and how much fear is being peddled and lapped up by the general population.  Just live your life and deal with things as they come!  We are the freaking United States.  Other generations have dealt with much worse, and many more things.  If this is the worst thing we have to deal with and we can't handle it, God help us.