Author Topic: Jacksonville Councilman wants to freeze half of Sheriff's budget  (Read 1873 times)

Steve

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Re: Jacksonville Councilman wants to freeze half of Sheriff's budget
« Reply #15 on: September 23, 2020, 03:22:40 PM »
This is going to sound strange, but I actually think Curry and Dennis are cut from a very similar cloth. They both have very different views on policy for sure, but neither of them have shown to be very good collaborators and seem to want to do everything themselves. This is a huge personality issue with both men.

So populism. You're saying they're both populists who tend against delegating. I can see how that could be considered a negative. For me, in my own experience, I've been burned by "collaborators" who were only seeking benefits for their convenience and don't actually want to do anything beneficial for citizens more times than I'd like. So I can see how people like Dennis would get fed up and roll up their sleeves. There's no value in being a "team player" if what the team wants is wrong.

You could also say our President fits this mold as well. I definitely wouldn't consider this a positive.

I do see and agree with your point that being entirely a team player isn't good. This mentality leads to scenarios where a group of intelligent people come up with some colossally bad ideas. Now, your point is that "collaborators" with ulterior motives don't want to do anything for citizens unless they get a personal benefit. My belief is that people with ulterior motives that are looking to take care of themselves aren't who we want in leadership period, regardless of whether or not they collaborate with others (meaning they take what they want behind others' back), or just do their own thing (meaning they take what they want to others' face).

Here's the thing: Each of the people on City Council is an elected official (I realize that's an obvious statement). My point is in my eyes they have a duty to try to work with their fellow council members. Now, some I believe are a lost cause (I'm so unimpressed by Becton it's not even funny), but I actually think this council is better (as a body) then we've had recently. What Dennis did wasn't working with others - it was an 11th hour wrench in the bicycle spokes. If you wanted to do this start in June (Even before the Mayor presented the budget) and talk to your fellow CMs to drum up support. If you get no support and want to drop the 50% bomb, then do it right after the Mayor presents the budget.

Tacachale

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Re: Jacksonville Councilman wants to freeze half of Sheriff's budget
« Reply #16 on: September 23, 2020, 03:50:19 PM »
This is going to sound strange, but I actually think Curry and Dennis are cut from a very similar cloth. They both have very different views on policy for sure, but neither of them have shown to be very good collaborators and seem to want to do everything themselves. This is a huge personality issue with both men.

So populism. You're saying they're both populists who tend against delegating. I can see how that could be considered a negative. For me, in my own experience, I've been burned by "collaborators" who were only seeking benefits for their convenience and don't actually want to do anything beneficial for citizens more times than I'd like. So I can see how people like Dennis would get fed up and roll up their sleeves. There's no value in being a "team player" if what the team wants is wrong.

You could also say our President fits this mold as well. I definitely wouldn't consider this a positive.

I do see and agree with your point that being entirely a team player isn't good. This mentality leads to scenarios where a group of intelligent people come up with some colossally bad ideas. Now, your point is that "collaborators" with ulterior motives don't want to do anything for citizens unless they get a personal benefit. My belief is that people with ulterior motives that are looking to take care of themselves aren't who we want in leadership period, regardless of whether or not they collaborate with others (meaning they take what they want behind others' back), or just do their own thing (meaning they take what they want to others' face).

Here's the thing: Each of the people on City Council is an elected official (I realize that's an obvious statement). My point is in my eyes they have a duty to try to work with their fellow council members. Now, some I believe are a lost cause (I'm so unimpressed by Becton it's not even funny), but I actually think this council is better (as a body) then we've had recently. What Dennis did wasn't working with others - it was an 11th hour wrench in the bicycle spokes. If you wanted to do this start in June (Even before the Mayor presented the budget) and talk to your fellow CMs to drum up support. If you get no support and want to drop the 50% bomb, then do it right after the Mayor presents the budget.

No one, and I mean no one, would categorize Curry as a populist.
Do you believe that when the blue jay or another bird sings and the body is trembling, that is a signal that people are coming or something important is about to happen?

Charles Hunter

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Re: Jacksonville Councilman wants to freeze half of Sheriff's budget
« Reply #17 on: September 23, 2020, 04:10:30 PM »
Here's the thing: Each of the people on City Council is an elected official (I realize that's an obvious statement). My point is in my eyes they have a duty to try to work with their fellow council members. Now, some I believe are a lost cause (I'm so unimpressed by Becton it's not even funny), but I actually think this council is better (as a body) then we've had recently. What Dennis did wasn't working with others - it was an 11th hour wrench in the bicycle spokes. If you wanted to do this start in June (Even before the Mayor presented the budget) and talk to your fellow CMs to drum up support. If you get no support and want to drop the 50% bomb, then do it right after the Mayor presents the budget.

Given Florida's Sunshine Laws, these conversations would have to provide proper public notice, and the opportunity for the public to attend - even if virtual or on the phone.

Steve

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Re: Jacksonville Councilman wants to freeze half of Sheriff's budget
« Reply #18 on: September 23, 2020, 04:42:55 PM »
This is going to sound strange, but I actually think Curry and Dennis are cut from a very similar cloth. They both have very different views on policy for sure, but neither of them have shown to be very good collaborators and seem to want to do everything themselves. This is a huge personality issue with both men.

So populism. You're saying they're both populists who tend against delegating. I can see how that could be considered a negative. For me, in my own experience, I've been burned by "collaborators" who were only seeking benefits for their convenience and don't actually want to do anything beneficial for citizens more times than I'd like. So I can see how people like Dennis would get fed up and roll up their sleeves. There's no value in being a "team player" if what the team wants is wrong.

You could also say our President fits this mold as well. I definitely wouldn't consider this a positive.

I do see and agree with your point that being entirely a team player isn't good. This mentality leads to scenarios where a group of intelligent people come up with some colossally bad ideas. Now, your point is that "collaborators" with ulterior motives don't want to do anything for citizens unless they get a personal benefit. My belief is that people with ulterior motives that are looking to take care of themselves aren't who we want in leadership period, regardless of whether or not they collaborate with others (meaning they take what they want behind others' back), or just do their own thing (meaning they take what they want to others' face).

Here's the thing: Each of the people on City Council is an elected official (I realize that's an obvious statement). My point is in my eyes they have a duty to try to work with their fellow council members. Now, some I believe are a lost cause (I'm so unimpressed by Becton it's not even funny), but I actually think this council is better (as a body) then we've had recently. What Dennis did wasn't working with others - it was an 11th hour wrench in the bicycle spokes. If you wanted to do this start in June (Even before the Mayor presented the budget) and talk to your fellow CMs to drum up support. If you get no support and want to drop the 50% bomb, then do it right after the Mayor presents the budget.

No one, and I mean no one, would categorize Curry as a populist.

Maybe he thinks he is. Honestly I’d have to think about it. My point was simply this: “ neither of them have shown to be very good collaborators and seem to want to do everything themselves.”

I think that is true of Trump, Curry, and Dennis and it’s not a good quality of any of them.

sandyshoes

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Re: Jacksonville Councilman wants to freeze half of Sheriff's budget
« Reply #19 on: September 23, 2020, 05:00:17 PM »
Re: Reply #17;  Sounds like this Gov't In the Sunshine law in FL prohibits an elected official from consorting with anyone whose meetings are closed to the public, for purposes of being used by said group to obtain advice and furtherment of their agenda(s) then?  What if the official believes in or thinks they believe in a group's agenda...is that favoritism, or would an official meet with anyone they serve, for as long and often as necessary?  (Again, just trying to get the picture in my mind and understand the process, and thanks for your kind indulgence).

Charles Hunter

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Re: Jacksonville Councilman wants to freeze half of Sheriff's budget
« Reply #20 on: September 23, 2020, 05:23:25 PM »
From the Florida Attorney General FAQ on Open Government
Quote
Florida's Government-in-the-Sunshine law provides a right of access to governmental proceedings at both the state and local levels. It applies to any gathering of two or more members of the same board to discuss some matter which will foresee ably come before that board for action. There is also a constitutionally guaranteed right of access. Virtually all state and local collegial public bodies are covered by the open meetings requirements with the exception of the judiciary and the state Legislature which has its own constitutional provision relating to access.

So, two members of City Council could have dinner and talk about their kids or the weather or anything that couldn't reasonably be a potential issue to come before the City Council.  Individual Council members can meet with anyone about anything. They can meet, without public notice, with developers that have projects or zoning before Council; they can meet with citizens (either individual citizens or interest groups) about issues - pot holes, trash collection, new develpments, zoning, anything.  Council members are supposed to approach all issues with an open mind, and listen to all views on the issue - but, they are human, and are interested in civic government (else, they wouldn't have run for Council), so will likely have opinions going in.

Edit to Add link to Fla. Attorney General FAQ: https://myfloridalegal.com/pages.nsf/Main/321B47083D80C4CD8525791B006A54E3

sandyshoes

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Re: Jacksonville Councilman wants to freeze half of Sheriff's budget
« Reply #21 on: September 23, 2020, 07:19:42 PM »
Reply to #20;  Thanks again, I have a much clearer understanding of the process. 

Tacachale

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Re: Jacksonville Councilman wants to freeze half of Sheriff's budget
« Reply #22 on: September 24, 2020, 03:58:03 PM »
This is going to sound strange, but I actually think Curry and Dennis are cut from a very similar cloth. They both have very different views on policy for sure, but neither of them have shown to be very good collaborators and seem to want to do everything themselves. This is a huge personality issue with both men.

So populism. You're saying they're both populists who tend against delegating. I can see how that could be considered a negative. For me, in my own experience, I've been burned by "collaborators" who were only seeking benefits for their convenience and don't actually want to do anything beneficial for citizens more times than I'd like. So I can see how people like Dennis would get fed up and roll up their sleeves. There's no value in being a "team player" if what the team wants is wrong.

You could also say our President fits this mold as well. I definitely wouldn't consider this a positive.

I do see and agree with your point that being entirely a team player isn't good. This mentality leads to scenarios where a group of intelligent people come up with some colossally bad ideas. Now, your point is that "collaborators" with ulterior motives don't want to do anything for citizens unless they get a personal benefit. My belief is that people with ulterior motives that are looking to take care of themselves aren't who we want in leadership period, regardless of whether or not they collaborate with others (meaning they take what they want behind others' back), or just do their own thing (meaning they take what they want to others' face).

Here's the thing: Each of the people on City Council is an elected official (I realize that's an obvious statement). My point is in my eyes they have a duty to try to work with their fellow council members. Now, some I believe are a lost cause (I'm so unimpressed by Becton it's not even funny), but I actually think this council is better (as a body) then we've had recently. What Dennis did wasn't working with others - it was an 11th hour wrench in the bicycle spokes. If you wanted to do this start in June (Even before the Mayor presented the budget) and talk to your fellow CMs to drum up support. If you get no support and want to drop the 50% bomb, then do it right after the Mayor presents the budget.

No one, and I mean no one, would categorize Curry as a populist.

Maybe he thinks he is. Honestly I’d have to think about it. My point was simply this: “ neither of them have shown to be very good collaborators and seem to want to do everything themselves.”

I think that is true of Trump, Curry, and Dennis and it’s not a good quality of any of them.

The definition of a populist is someone who claims to represent "the people" ("the people" invariable means "some of the people," but the idea is that you appeal to the common man in some way). That's not Curry's style at all. I would say that Trump has more of that than he does, though I agree that both have a tendency not to work well with others.
Do you believe that when the blue jay or another bird sings and the body is trembling, that is a signal that people are coming or something important is about to happen?

bl8jaxnative

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Re: Jacksonville Councilman wants to freeze half of Sheriff's budget
« Reply #23 on: September 25, 2020, 11:19:20 AM »
Here's the thing: I agree there needs to be accountability, especially given what seems like a culture of law breaking INSIDE the department. But, dropping this at the 11th hour seems like a political stunt by CM Dennis.

If he wanted budget accountability, the Mayor presented the budget in early July. Bring it up then.

If it was about accountability, it wouldn't require the chief to go back before the council in 6 months.  It's about creating a political show to be seen as "doing something" even though it's doing nothing.