Author Topic: Skyway Conversion Begins  (Read 3678 times)

marcuscnelson

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Re: Skyway Conversion Begins
« Reply #15 on: June 01, 2020, 10:53:02 AM »
So how do we make JTA do that?

thelakelander

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Re: Skyway Conversion Begins
« Reply #16 on: June 01, 2020, 11:03:07 AM »
Getting JTA to go a different route, means changing the board to direct staff to go in a different direction. Since the board is politically appointed, it means getting someone elected in office, willing to put change agents in place.
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bl8jaxnative

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Re: Skyway Conversion Begins
« Reply #17 on: June 03, 2020, 12:08:34 PM »

That feeds into one of the 2 main problems with mass transit. 

Organizations evolve to focus on and serve what feeds them.  That's how they survive.   95% of JTA's transit funding, what JTA needs to survive, is money given directly to them by politicians.     Just by that setup, they're always going to be focused on what the politicians are looking for.   

That is to say, the politicians are the customer.

Bill Hoff

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Re: Skyway Conversion Begins
« Reply #18 on: June 04, 2020, 02:47:49 PM »

That feeds into one of the 2 main problems with mass transit. 

Organizations evolve to focus on and serve what feeds them.  That's how they survive.   95% of JTA's transit funding, what JTA needs to survive, is money given directly to them by politicians.     Just by that setup, they're always going to be focused on what the politicians are looking for.   

That is to say, the politicians are the customer.

Speaking of transit funding.... came across this yesterday:

Transportation Per Person, Per Square Mile*

Jacksonville/Duval <$1
Orlando/Orange $3
Tampa/Hillsborough $3
Miami/Dade $18

* per capita spending

Via the JU Public Policy Institute.

Live_Oak

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Re: Skyway Conversion Begins
« Reply #19 on: June 04, 2020, 03:04:53 PM »

That feeds into one of the 2 main problems with mass transit. 

Organizations evolve to focus on and serve what feeds them.  That's how they survive.   95% of JTA's transit funding, what JTA needs to survive, is money given directly to them by politicians.     Just by that setup, they're always going to be focused on what the politicians are looking for.   

That is to say, the politicians are the customer.


Speaking of transit funding.... came across this yesterday:

Transportation Per Person, Per Square Mile*

Jacksonville/Duval <$1
Orlando/Orange $3
Tampa/Hillsborough $3
Miami/Dade $18

* per capita spending

Via the JU Public Policy Institute.

Bill -

Do you have a link you could share?

jaxlongtimer

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Re: Skyway Conversion Begins
« Reply #20 on: June 04, 2020, 05:37:05 PM »
Speaking of transit funding.... came across this yesterday:

Transportation Per Person, Per Square Mile*

Jacksonville/Duval <$1
Orlando/Orange $3
Tampa/Hillsborough $3
Miami/Dade $18

* per capita spending

Via the JU Public Policy Institute.

Jax is low on per capita spending on transportation, education and parks, among other items (maybe social services?).  We are also low on taxes.  I would like to know what Jax's per capita spend is on handouts/incentives to developer projects. We are probably near the top on that list.

And we wonder why there is civil unrest?

bl8jaxnative

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Re: Skyway Conversion Begins
« Reply #21 on: June 05, 2020, 05:27:53 PM »

Speaking of transit funding.... came across this yesterday:

Transportation Per Person, Per Square Mile*

Jacksonville/Duval <$1
Orlando/Orange $3
Tampa/Hillsborough $3
Miami/Dade $18

* per capita spending

Via the JU Public Policy Institute.


They're doing the same thing people do with LA. LA County's got 10 million people.  But it's a huge county, like 90 miles North - South,  like 5 times the land of Duval County.

Anyway, they take the LA population and divide it by the size of the county.  They then declare it to have a low density.  But if you  look at the urbanized part of the county, the urban-urban part south of the san briel mountains, it's the metro in the US.  IIRC that holds true when including Orange County, too.

When talking about transit, we shouldn't be measuring all of Duval for $ per square mile.  it shouldn't  limited the urban-urban areas.  Hell, I'm not sure what the fart dollars per sqare mile means. 

Does Chipotle judge their success on how much they spend per square mile?

They really should be looking at something like the number of trips per vehicle route miles.  The same with the cost.

If you look at total costs - operating, maint + capital - for the main 4 ( technically when you say Miami,there's a ton of transit operators like the city of Hallandale, etc ) PER passenger mile, it'll give you a better idea of what's going on.

Miami - $1.38
Tampa - $1.31
Orlando- $1.70
Jacksonville - $2.03

marcuscnelson

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Re: Skyway Conversion Begins
« Reply #22 on: June 24, 2020, 09:11:33 PM »
https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/article/jta-jacksonville-regional-transportation-center-was-years-bold-accomplishment

Quote
More than 800,000 people used the Skyway and the ferry logged 423,000 customers, Ford said.

Quote
Ford said JTA will further develop and expand the Ultimate Urban Circulator autonomous vehicle program, aided by a $12.5 million federal transportation grant, Ford said.

thelakelander

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Re: Skyway Conversion Begins
« Reply #23 on: June 24, 2020, 10:49:20 PM »
If the 800,000 skyway trips are over the course of a year, that's a little more than 2,100 trips a day. That's more than a 50% drop in recent years and the lowest ridership in more than a decade. Not good at all.
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jaxlongtimer

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Re: Skyway Conversion Begins
« Reply #24 on: June 25, 2020, 01:17:03 AM »
If the 800,000 skyway trips are over the course of a year, that's a little more than 2,100 trips a day. That's more than a 50% drop in recent years and the lowest ridership in more than a decade. Not good at all.

Lake, are your really surprised by this?  This is the 30+ year history of the Skyway.  And, today it's free so they can't even give sufficient numbers of rides away (and, I note, that's with the increase in Downtown living many said would drive increased use).

This article [ https://www.jacksonville.com/article/20100905/NEWS/801245281] from 2010 is a nice recap of the Skyway's disappointing history and consistent string of dashed expectations since the day it opened over 30 years ago.  Interesting that hope sprung eternal then just as some are doing today (reminds me of being a Jag's fan  ;D) and the same ol' well-worn and desperate arguments to keep it going are still being proffered.  It's a fool's gold.

The article notes that in 2010, the Skyway was a financial failure (and that was before it was free) even by mass transit standards.  Surely, it isn't doing any better today.  And, now you can add however much is the new investment to convert it to autonomous vehicles (which will also likely incur equal or greater operating losses compared to the current system) and the write-off of abandoning the existing track, cars and operating system.  Can you provide those numbers for discussion?

Quote
The system that was built for $183 million, more than half from the federal government, needs $14 million to operate each year - $1.5 million of that from Washington for maintenance alone.

In 2009, it generated only $431,000 in revenue, less than a 4 percent return. Most public transit systems lose money, but by comparison JTA’s bus system made back more than 20 percent - $6.2 million - of its $30.2 million cost in 2009.
« Last Edit: June 25, 2020, 01:19:44 AM by jaxlongtimer »

thelakelander

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Re: Skyway Conversion Begins
« Reply #25 on: June 25, 2020, 08:52:53 AM »
If the 800,000 skyway trips are over the course of a year, that's a little more than 2,100 trips a day. That's more than a 50% drop in recent years and the lowest ridership in more than a decade. Not good at all.

Lake, are your really surprised by this?  This is the 30+ year history of the Skyway.  And, today it's free so they can't even give sufficient numbers of rides away (and, I note, that's with the increase in Downtown living many said would drive increased use).

I'm actually not surprised. But it has less to do with the Skyway or infrastructure itself and more to do with how we run things into failure. We don't operate the thing on most weekends, we closed the LaVilla line just as soon as people started living next to it, we're five years late with attempting a no-frills stop at Brooklyn, we don't program or lease out excess space on the ground level of the stations, we still have not coordinated downtown land use and development policy around the existing skyway stops, we're still building parking garages and allowing demos for surface parking crazy and we don't operate the Skyway as a transit spine. You can't really talk about something being a failure when you've done nothing over the last 30 years but set it up to fail.

Quote
This article [ https://www.jacksonville.com/article/20100905/NEWS/801245281] from 2010 is a nice recap of the Skyway's disappointing history and consistent string of dashed expectations since the day it opened over 30 years ago.  Interesting that hope sprung eternal then just as some are doing today (reminds me of being a Jag's fan  ;D) and the same ol' well-worn and desperate arguments to keep it going are still being proffered.  It's a fool's gold.

I think you're focusing too much on the Skyway itself when I'd argue it isn't the problem. It's a result of a true problem. That problem is until we change the way we do things, true Downtown revitalization itself is fool's gold. The Skyway and much of everything else will suffer until we stop the foolishness.

Quote
The article notes that in 2010, the Skyway was a financial failure (and that was before it was free) even by mass transit standards.  Surely, it isn't doing any better today.  And, now you can add however much is the new investment to convert it to autonomous vehicles (which will also likely incur equal or greater operating losses compared to the current system) and the write-off of abandoning the existing track, cars and operating system.  Can you provide those numbers for discussion?

I find a lot of fault with the article but there are things that can be easily done to make the system and a lot of other things in downtown more effective and financially sustainable. With that said, the U2C is simply more madness.

"A man who views the world the same at 50 as he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life.” - Muhammad Ali

Live_Oak

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Re: Skyway Conversion Begins
« Reply #26 on: June 25, 2020, 11:32:16 AM »
If the 800,000 skyway trips are over the course of a year, that's a little more than 2,100 trips a day. That's more than a 50% drop in recent years and the lowest ridership in more than a decade. Not good at all.

Transit ridership across the country has been declining. The closure of the Jefferson St and Convention Center stations surely also had an impact.

thelakelander

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Re: Skyway Conversion Begins
« Reply #27 on: June 25, 2020, 11:36:15 AM »
True but not 50% pre-covid. Much of the Skyway's issues have always been self inflicted and not taking advantage of obvious opportunities.
« Last Edit: June 25, 2020, 11:38:31 AM by thelakelander »
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Live_Oak

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Re: Skyway Conversion Begins
« Reply #28 on: June 25, 2020, 11:38:36 AM »
Also, the skyway doesn't run on the weekends. So the trips per day are really around 3100.

thelakelander

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Re: Skyway Conversion Begins
« Reply #29 on: June 25, 2020, 11:45:11 AM »
But it does run during special events and those days are likely higher than the average weekday numbers. So it would definitely be below 3100.
"A man who views the world the same at 50 as he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life.” - Muhammad Ali