Author Topic: JTA planning to seek bids to build, run U2C  (Read 7876 times)

marcuscnelson

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Re: JTA planning to seek bids to build, run U2C
« Reply #45 on: November 12, 2020, 05:38:02 PM »
Side note: I just realized it's been three years now since JTA first announced they wanted to use AVs as a Skyway replacement. We're halfway to… not actually replacing the Skyway yet.

I wonder how things would have gone if they had decided on any other way to replace the system.
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ProjectMaximus

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Re: JTA planning to seek bids to build, run U2C
« Reply #46 on: November 15, 2020, 11:25:38 PM »
Not sure if this has been discussed here already, but downtown Tampa is already operating these AV transit shuttles. One-year trial service opened about 3 or 4 weeks ago...I haven't read up to see how that has been. Same operator as Lake Nona (Beep)

Edit: I called it a one-week trial instead of one-year.
« Last Edit: November 16, 2020, 01:48:30 PM by ProjectMaximus »

thelakelander

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Re: JTA planning to seek bids to build, run U2C
« Reply #47 on: November 15, 2020, 11:39:11 PM »
I don't think there has been any discussion since the Tampa pilot started. I know they had been delayed for quite a while.
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marcuscnelson

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Re: JTA planning to seek bids to build, run U2C
« Reply #48 on: November 16, 2020, 12:16:54 AM »
https://www.tampabay.com/news/transportation/2020/10/09/driverless-shuttle-launches-in-downtown-tampa/

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Much of the 12-block corridor is closed to regular traffic, but the shuttle will interact with cars and buses at the northern end, near the Marion Transit Center.

The route provides a much-needed connection between the county’s most popular transit center and the TECO Line Streetcar. More than a dozen bus routes pass through Marion Transit Center, along with the Downtowner, Megabus and RedCoach. The streetcar, which eliminated fares two years ago, has a stop 100 feet from the shuttle’s southern end point at Whiting Street. From there, riders can connect to Ybor City, the Channel District and other parts of downtown.

Burckard said there is opportunity for HART to expand the pilot, which has an additional two-year option. The agency will study ridership, safety and other data points through the year to determine how else the agency could use the technology, Burckard said. That could include expansions to the Riverwalk and other parts of downtown, supplementing bus service in lesser traveled parts of the county or creating new options in places like the University of South Florida innovation district.

See, this is all fine. Running these shuttles in mostly transit dedicated space (the article points out that at least 7% of the time it is still operated manually by on-board attendants), connecting to fixed transit (TECO streetcar) and creating a new option for a corridor that didn't have it is great!

But this also highlights just how problematic JTA's approach is. Where instead, by the time the expanded study in Tampa is done (should it be expanded), JTA somehow expects to be running these down a busy corridor in mixed traffic as the "fixed" transit in and of itself. It's not a bad thing bringing transit to a new corridor, but for that to be the football stadium seems like a serious capacity challenge, which there is no evidence these are capable of addressing.

I think there was an idea mentioned on another thread to have run these from the JRTC down Park Street, instead of what they're doing. That seems to me like it would be the equivalent of this, instead of throwing $40 million in taxpayer money into Bay Street.
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ProjectMaximus

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Re: JTA planning to seek bids to build, run U2C
« Reply #49 on: November 16, 2020, 01:51:29 PM »
https://www.tampabay.com/news/transportation/2020/10/09/driverless-shuttle-launches-in-downtown-tampa/

Quote
Much of the 12-block corridor is closed to regular traffic, but the shuttle will interact with cars and buses at the northern end, near the Marion Transit Center.

The route provides a much-needed connection between the county’s most popular transit center and the TECO Line Streetcar. More than a dozen bus routes pass through Marion Transit Center, along with the Downtowner, Megabus and RedCoach. The streetcar, which eliminated fares two years ago, has a stop 100 feet from the shuttle’s southern end point at Whiting Street. From there, riders can connect to Ybor City, the Channel District and other parts of downtown.

Burckard said there is opportunity for HART to expand the pilot, which has an additional two-year option. The agency will study ridership, safety and other data points through the year to determine how else the agency could use the technology, Burckard said. That could include expansions to the Riverwalk and other parts of downtown, supplementing bus service in lesser traveled parts of the county or creating new options in places like the University of South Florida innovation district.

See, this is all fine. Running these shuttles in mostly transit dedicated space (the article points out that at least 7% of the time it is still operated manually by on-board attendants), connecting to fixed transit (TECO streetcar) and creating a new option for a corridor that didn't have it is great!

But this also highlights just how problematic JTA's approach is. Where instead, by the time the expanded study in Tampa is done (should it be expanded), JTA somehow expects to be running these down a busy corridor in mixed traffic as the "fixed" transit in and of itself. It's not a bad thing bringing transit to a new corridor, but for that to be the football stadium seems like a serious capacity challenge, which there is no evidence these are capable of addressing.

I think there was an idea mentioned on another thread to have run these from the JRTC down Park Street, instead of what they're doing. That seems to me like it would be the equivalent of this, instead of throwing $40 million in taxpayer money into Bay Street.

My friend and I actually shot a facebook live to discuss this, in which I more or less expressed what you're saying. Their system is operating in a different context...but still will be very interesting to see how it performs.

thelakelander

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Re: JTA planning to seek bids to build, run U2C
« Reply #50 on: November 16, 2020, 02:43:31 PM »
^I'd be highly interested in ridership performance/end user perception, although I assume Downtown Tampa has been hit just as hard as DT Jax when it comes to COVID's impact.
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Charles Hunter

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Re: JTA planning to seek bids to build, run U2C
« Reply #51 on: November 18, 2020, 10:54:26 PM »
The FCC just voted to reallocate more than half of the bandwidth previously reserved for vehicle safety to WiFi. Wonder how this will affect the U2C?

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The reallocation may have an impact on the future of autonomous vehicles, advocates say, because connected cars will need as much communication bandwidth as they can get to operate safely, beyond what their onboard cameras and sensors can provide without being able to communicate with other vehicles and with infrastructure.

https://www.consumerreports.org/car-safety/fcc-votes-to-scrap-existing-vehicle-safety-communications-tech-to-boost-wifi/

marcuscnelson

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Re: JTA planning to seek bids to build, run U2C
« Reply #52 on: December 05, 2020, 01:31:24 PM »
New Making Moves yesterday. Featuring Local Motors' Olli 2.0 AV.

I said this last month, but I really don't get why the insistence was on making this the actual urban transit system, when it's been said at length here that its best role seems to be connecting to the urban transit system. Plus, the insistence that they're going to figure this out before Tesla or Uber do is just… remarkable. You'd think a "Citizens for Real Transit" PAC or something would have sprung up by now to just repeatedly point out what a dumb idea this is. Especially when the competitor already exists.

They kept bringing up these "Golden 20" rules/requirements/standards, and yet I had no idea what they actually are. So I looked it up:

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Below is the list of the 20 critical needed items/capabilities identified by the Automation Division for Autonomous Shuttles also known as the “Golden 20”.

  • Full ADA Compliance
  • Buy America/Buy American Compliance
  • Cybersecurity
  • Remote Route Programming with Low Latency
  • NHTSA Approval to operate on Public Road
  • Vehicle to Infrastructure and V2X Capabilities (DSRC & 5G)
  • Traverse Slope of ± 12 Degrees w/ Full Passenger load (Sustained Acceleration/Deceleration)
  • Operate bi-directionally up to 35 MPH
  • ≥12 hours of battery life
  • Operate at speeds of 15 MPH within ± 1 foot of Stationary Object
    Operate at speeds of 15 MPH within ± 3 feet of Moving Object
  • May Operate during Inclement Weather (Rain, Fog, Wind, and Extreme Heat)
  • Internal Cab – Environment control with Rapid Cool capability
    & Sustained temperature with Full Passenger Load
  • Ability to be towed; Push/Pull and Steer AV Manually or towed via another AV
  • Crash Worthy up to 35 MPH
  • Ability for Fast Charge/Opportunity Charging
  • Ability to regulate passenger capacity
  • System for recording/storing video for at least 30 days (Black Box)
  • Emergency button to contact Authority/Agency control center
  • Remote command & control operations of vehicles with low latency
  • Complete Vehicle Monitoring system, including health monitoring

In other news, while I was looking for these Golden 20, I came across some files from a few years ago. It's strange, because the implication early on is that AVs didn't really make that much sense either & had too many unknowns, although there was the hope of flexibility. Also, that at some point using the same system as Miami's MetroMover was considered. Yet later, there's a jump to AVs. So what changed?

2015 Technology Assessment
2016 Public Forum
2017 Modernization Report
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thelakelander

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Re: JTA planning to seek bids to build, run U2C
« Reply #53 on: December 05, 2020, 05:32:22 PM »
Why is a transit agency trying to compete with Tesla or Uber? That type of technology competition has very little to do with the basic need of efficiently moving residents using transit from point A to point B.

You'd think a "Citizens for Real Transit" PAC or something would have sprung up by now to just repeatedly point out what a dumb idea this is. Especially when the competitor already exists.

There is a real need for a citizen's transit advocacy group in this town. Something is needed to reel some of this stuff back into the world of reality.
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Charles Hunter

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Re: JTA planning to seek bids to build, run U2C
« Reply #54 on: December 05, 2020, 06:55:36 PM »
Why is a transit agency trying to compete with Tesla or Uber? That type of technology competition has very little to do with the basic need of efficiently moving residents using transit from point A to point B.

You'd think a "Citizens for Real Transit" PAC or something would have sprung up by now to just repeatedly point out what a dumb idea this is. Especially when the competitor already exists.

There is a real need for a citizen's transit advocacy group in this town. Something is needed to reel some of this stuff back into the world of reality.

There used to be a provision in the federal transit law that prohibited transit agencies using federal funds from competing with the private sector. This pretty much put JTA (and others) out of the lucrative Charter Bus business.  Could a case be made about U2C?

And, yes, we need a Citizens for Real Transit movement here.

marcuscnelson

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Re: JTA planning to seek bids to build, run U2C
« Reply #55 on: December 05, 2020, 11:22:29 PM »
There used to be a provision in the federal transit law that prohibited transit agencies using federal funds from competing with the private sector. This pretty much put JTA (and others) out of the lucrative Charter Bus business.  Could a case be made about U2C?

I was under the impression that U2C has received at least some federal funding. I'd be surprised if that provision hasn't been repealed by now.

You'd think a "Citizens for Real Transit" PAC or something would have sprung up by now to just repeatedly point out what a dumb idea this is. Especially when the competitor already exists.

There is a real need for a citizen's transit advocacy group in this town. Something is needed to reel some of this stuff back into the world of reality.

And, yes, we need a Citizens for Real Transit movement here.

Do we… want to start one? After some cursory research, Citizens for Modern Transit in St. Louis seems to be something possibly along the lines of a blueprint. They helped bring MetroLink light rail to the city and then kept going, with memberships for individuals and companies that are supportive of their efforts. Plus advocating for broader transit/rail connectivity in the state (although that may be a harder bargain here than in Missouri).

Quote
We don’t own or operate the transit system, but we work to champion it, challenge it, encourage it and advocate for it. We do this by helping to secure state and federal funding for transit projects; playing an active role in addressing safety and security issues; increasing ridership and raise awareness about the benefits of public transit; spearheading feasibility studies to examine the benefits of adding new light-rail stations, and furthering sustainability efforts. CMT also ensures the value of public transit is understood by elected officials, civic leaders, key stakeholders and the community at large – so the opportunity to fund, improve and expand public transit isn’t missed.
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fsu813

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Re: JTA planning to seek bids to build, run U2C
« Reply #56 on: December 07, 2020, 09:29:55 PM »
Well, Uber is out of the self-driving development game. Too difficult & expensive. Yet another signal that the enthusiasm far outpaces the tech for the foreseeable future.

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/12/07/uber-sells-atg-self-driving-unit-to-aurora-.html
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marcuscnelson

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Re: JTA planning to seek bids to build, run U2C
« Reply #57 on: December 07, 2020, 10:09:16 PM »
But you see, JTA will figure it out! And have them running in mixed traffic with no problems within just three years!
So, to the young people fighting in this movement for change, here is my charge: march in the streets, protest, run for school committee or city council or the state legislature. And win. - Ed Markey

marcuscnelson

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Re: JTA planning to seek bids to build, run U2C
« Reply #58 on: December 15, 2020, 09:42:37 PM »
Amazon-owned Zoox unveiled its AV this week. No projected release date. But you know, JTA's totally got this all figured out, and they'll absolutely be ready to go in three years.

https://jalopnik.com/this-is-what-your-future-amazon-robotaxi-will-look-like-1845877588
So, to the young people fighting in this movement for change, here is my charge: march in the streets, protest, run for school committee or city council or the state legislature. And win. - Ed Markey

Charles Hunter

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Re: JTA planning to seek bids to build, run U2C
« Reply #59 on: December 22, 2020, 09:20:02 AM »
Toyota will be running autonomous buses at the 2021 Summer Olympics in Japan.  It looks like they will be in exclusive right-of-way, but this may just be the test track. (I couldn't figure out how to embed the video)
https://youtu.be/Nhju4lzP-9Q