Exploring Nocatee

[I-10east]

But they aren't fine with their choice.  The vast majority won't live there after 10 years because the "neighborhood" they were sold never actually materialized.  Several years ago Nocatee actually had a billboard up on US1 saying living there would make your commute to work better.  How bad would your commute to work have to be that moving to Nocatee would make it better?

IMO both urban and suburban living have it's strengths and weaknesses. Long commutes to work (esp in fast growing cities like Jax) and suburban living typically goes hand and hand. I'm quite sure that cities like Atlanta (with it's very expensive city living) makes Jax's commutes look like a piece of cake.

[Adam White]

I hate sprawl and it bothers me that developers continue to build further and further out. I hate the fact that it makes traffic worse and is terrible for the environment. So I will criticize that. But I don't have anything against the developments otherwise - even if they aren't my thing.

[I-10east]

Growing city plus crime around inner city (or old suburbs like Arlington in JAX) equals an octopus of suburban sprawl. The only thing that can stop it is gentrification of depressed areas (which many think is controversial), significant borders like San Diego's Sonoran Desert to east, Pacific Ocean to west and Mexico to south.

Maybe some extreme measures are taken with politics with not creating sprawl (like maybe Portland OR) but overwhelmingly what I said is what's going on in most American cities.   

[thelakelander]

Crime has nothing to do with sprawl. Public policy, how we invest in our public infrastructure, politically connected land owners and land use policies do. If someone wants to make outward growth more sustainable, focus on changing those things because they directly impact the marketplace, form, scale, density and location of new development.

[thelakelander]

The root causes of sprawl are no different in Jax than they are in Chicagoland, Dallas-Fort Worth or Valdosta. Sprawl is a low density, auto-dependent largely unrestricted form of outward development and growth. You could have a 100% crime free environment and you'd still have outward growth. Yet, the development form of that outward growth is controlled by things that have nothing to do with crime or a perception of it.

Now, this doesn't mean a perception of crime, bad schools, architectural preference and a host of other issues aren't a factor in an individual's decision to move further away from a city's center. However, that individual's personal decisions aren't the reason why a development takes on the look, shape and density of what we see.

[CityLife]

^^^The article is fine. My bad, I should've prefaced with "typical responses to types of articles". Suburban articles are often met with grievances about lack of walkability etc etc etc.

I totally agree with your take here below.

The people out there seem prefectly fine with their choice and likely don't prefer being inside the beltway. Let them be. To each his own. Just stop wasting time and money on gimmicks trying to attract these types to visit downtown on a consistent basis. They locate to places like Nocatee for a good reason.

But they aren't fine with their choice.  The vast majority won't live there after 10 years because the "neighborhood" they were sold never actually materialized.  Several years ago Nocatee actually had a billboard up on US1 saying living there would make your commute to work better.  How bad would your commute to work have to be that moving to Nocatee would make it better?

You know everyone in Nocatee? I know several people that have moved there (from the beach or in-town neighborhoods) and they are very happy with their choice. I think a good percentage of people that have moved there have been attracted by friends that already live there.

Like it or not, it's a good place to raise kids for active people. Especially for people in their 30's and 40's that are over the party lifestyle. There are tons of parks, trails, and greenways; and the Splash Park and Spray Park are awesome for kids. You can find all the amenities here:  https://www.nocatee.com/lifestyle.  Nocatee is also only about 25 minutes from St. Augustine. Sadly, many people prefer St. Augustine to Jax's urban core, so to them, distance to Jax's urban core is not even a consideration. Particularly for those that work on the Southside.

That said, Nocatee is a missed opportunity for SJC to create a truly special place and economic development engine. With so much land available and a location halfway between Jax and St. Augustine, there was a blank slate to attract institutions, corporate HQ, or sports entities. As a for instance, the master planned community (Abacoa) I live in Jupiter, which is now virtually built out and one of the most successful in the state; attracted major institutions during it's development. It has arguably the two best research institutions in the entire state (Scripps and Max Planck), the FAU Honors College, two Spring training teams (Cardinals and Marlins) and a minor league team. These have helped retain property values long term and ensure the development is sustainable.  Scripps and Max Planck were brought in with significant state dollars due to political connections, but I don't see why Nocatee/SJC couldn't have leveraged state incentives to bring in economic development.

From a site planning standpoint, Nocatee missed a lot of opportunities. There is virtually no interconnectivity, too many high speed roads (notably 210) splitting up the community, and a meh Town Center area (when there isn't even much commercial nearby). I know the initial site plan (particularly around the Town Center) got gutted quite a bit due to the timing of development during the recession, but I do think that long term Nocatee may have issues sustaining it's success due to these issues. Especially if anyone in North Florida actually builds a proper New Urbanist type development in a desirable area.  Here's what Abacoa looks like. http://devabacoa.pantheonsite.io/sites/default/files/images/Resources/Land%20Use%20graphic%207-16-13.png

Like Lake said, Baldwin Park and Celebration are other good examples of quality master planned communities. Property values have been sustainable in these communities long term even after turnover from the first wave of buyers.  It will be interesting to see if Nocatee can sustain that same success once the initial families that made up the early buyers downsize or retire.

One last thought. Nocatee should be a wake up call to Jacksonville to improve it's parks, trails, and greenways, which frankly are atrocious. Like it or not, a lot of people are leaving Jax for Nocatee or choosing to move to Nocatee over Jax; and it's not just because of schools and crime. The parks and recreation opportunities in the City are severely lacking and need to be improved to make the city more desirable.

[Adam White]

Growing city plus crime around inner city (or old suburbs like Arlington in JAX) equals an octopus of suburban sprawl. The only thing that can stop it is gentrification of depressed areas (which many think is controversial), significant borders like San Diego's Sonoran Desert to east, Pacific Ocean to west and Mexico to south.

Maybe some extreme measures are taken with politics with not creating sprawl (like maybe Portland OR) but overwhelmingly what I said is what's going on in most American cities.

Sprawl happens - but Jacksonville's population density is low AF. In massive, dense cities, there is sprawl simply because there is no room for people in the city centre. That's not the case in Jax.

[Tacachale]

Honestly, I think the mass exodus of suburbanites outside the county could be a big opportunity for Jax. Opens up a measure of regional competition, and shines a light on the advantages Jax has as the core city of the First Coast. Duval has assets the bedroom suburbs just can't compete with: employment base, which we've got locked down so far, a diverse population, and a variety of old school neighborhoods the burbs can never replicate. Our goal should be less about trying to compete for suburbanites who are perfectly happy where they are, and more about building up our environments and assets (the Urban Core, real beach communities, cultural amenities, employers, etc.) that you can't get elsewhere in the region.

[thelakelander]

The root causes of sprawl are no different in Jax than they are in Chicagoland, Dallas-Fort Worth or Valdosta. Sprawl is a low density, auto-dependent largely unrestricted form of outward development and growth. You could have a 100% crime free environment and you'd still have outward growth. Yet, the development form of that outward growth is controlled by things that have nothing to do with crime or a perception of it.

Now, this doesn't mean a perception of crime, bad schools, architectural preference and a host of other issues aren't a factor in an individual's decision to move further away from a city's center. However, that individual's personal decisions aren't the reason why a development takes on the look, shape and density of what we see.

I appreciate your conviction in your opinions but clearly we have different views which is cool...and have to admit I am pretty much over caring much about sprawl so I will check out here.
Now your use of absolutes could get me going as I am not a big fan

Sorry, my bad. I wasn't giving my opinion. I should have provided a link to the source used.

I was relying the term's definition to help limit confusion on what it means for others reading who may care and want to know: https://www.britannica.com/topic/urban-sprawl

I'm one of those people who do believe, if we are to resolve problems, it's best to have a solid base of understanding on how they've come to be.

I'll admit, I shared it but I can't personally do anything about Britannica's absolutes

[thelakelander]

Honestly, I think the mass exodus of suburbanites outside the county could be a big opportunity for Jax. Opens up a measure of regional competition, and shines a light on the advantages Jax has as the core city of the First Coast. Duval has assets the bedroom suburbs just can't compete with: employment base, which we've got locked down so far, a diverse population, and a variety of old school neighborhoods the burbs can never replicate. Our goal should be less about trying to compete for suburbanites who are perfectly happy where they are, and more about building up our environments and assets (the Urban Core, real beach communities, cultural amenities, employers, etc.) that you can't get elsewhere in the region.

I'm personally a big fan of the browning of Duval. As a fan of cultural diversity, acceptance and intermingling, about time IMO. I agree that the differences between places can be used as strengths for all of them and the region as a whole.

[Adam White]

Honestly, I think the mass exodus of suburbanites outside the county could be a big opportunity for Jax. Opens up a measure of regional competition, and shines a light on the advantages Jax has as the core city of the First Coast. Duval has assets the bedroom suburbs just can't compete with: employment base, which we've got locked down so far, a diverse population, and a variety of old school neighborhoods the burbs can never replicate. Our goal should be less about trying to compete for suburbanites who are perfectly happy where they are, and more about building up our environments and assets (the Urban Core, real beach communities, cultural amenities, employers, etc.) that you can't get elsewhere in the region.

If we build up our assets - like, for example, encouraging more businesses to move their offices downtown - it would (I hope) raise the property values of land closer to downtown. And places like Arlington would experience a revival. And there might start to be more focus on infill rather than building new subdivisions way out at the margins of the county and beyond.

[thelakelander]

Growing city plus crime around inner city (or old suburbs like Arlington in JAX) equals an octopus of suburban sprawl. The only thing that can stop it is gentrification of depressed areas (which many think is controversial), significant borders like San Diego's Sonoran Desert to east, Pacific Ocean to west and Mexico to south.

Maybe some extreme measures are taken with politics with not creating sprawl (like maybe Portland OR) but overwhelmingly what I said is what's going on in most American cities.

Sprawl happens - but Jacksonville's population density is low AF. In massive, dense cities, there is sprawl simply because there is no room for people in the city centre. That's not the case in Jax.

Yes, it's an opportunity, at least for the pre-consolidated city of Jax, which is about 50% less in population and density as it was in 1950. If we can find ways to revamp public policy to not subsidize unsustainable development patterns and invest quality of life initiatives instead of just talking about and studying them, we have the space to accommodate a lot more people and grow our tax base from within.

[Charles Hunter]

How do you encourage "in-flight" while avoiding gentrification?

[Adam White]

Growing city plus crime around inner city (or old suburbs like Arlington in JAX) equals an octopus of suburban sprawl. The only thing that can stop it is gentrification of depressed areas (which many think is controversial), significant borders like San Diego's Sonoran Desert to east, Pacific Ocean to west and Mexico to south.

Maybe some extreme measures are taken with politics with not creating sprawl (like maybe Portland OR) but overwhelmingly what I said is what's going on in most American cities.

Sprawl happens - but Jacksonville's population density is low AF. In massive, dense cities, there is sprawl simply because there is no room for people in the city centre. That's not the case in Jax.

Yes, it's an opportunity, at least for the pre-consolidated city of Jax, which is about 50% less in population and density as it was in 1950. If we can find ways to revamp public policy to not subsidize unsustainable development patterns and invest quality of life initiatives instead of just talking about and studying them, we have the space to accommodate a lot more people and grow our tax base from within.

When I was in school in the 80s, Riverside was a bit sketchy. I first moved there in the mid-90s (after it was already getting 'nicer' but still had a long way to go). I think it's fair to argue that Riverside is one of the more successful Jax neighborhoods and its mix of restaurants, retail, offices, etc is what we'd ideally want to see downtown. I think part of the way it worked was that it was cheap to live in and students, artists and other people moved there and made it 'safe' for everyone else. It took a long time.

Downtown needs to get people living there - people who would be willing to live in a place with few amenities and bags of 'character'. Once you attract more and more people like that, you'll slowly see businesses move in to take advantage of the market. And eventually, downtown will be a 'cool' area with cafes and 'bohemian' residents and people will want to move there.

Or maybe not. I frequently don't know what I'm talking about. But I do think there is no one 'solution' to downtown and anything meaningful is going to take years and years to achieve anything.

[Adam White]

How do you encourage "in-flight" while avoiding gentrification?

Gentrification isn't necessarily a bad thing - especially in a place like downtown where there aren't really any residents. I think the challenge is to allow a degree of gentrification without doing it at the expense of the local residents.