Author Topic: Denver Union Station: A successful example for the JRTC  (Read 1793 times)

bl8jaxnative

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Re: Denver Union Station: A successful example for the JRTC
« Reply #45 on: January 16, 2020, 08:31:41 AM »

As for Virgin Trains USA, who cares if they come to Jacksonville.  The question is how the hell are they going to survive.  They're taking on insane levels of debt and have no revenues to back it.  If there's any softness on their Orlando line or they're LA line, either one, they won't have the cash flow to cover their bills.   ----->>>> *POOOOF* no more virgin trains USA.

They are a gigantic roll of the dice.  I hope they make a go of things.  But I wouldn't put any money on it.  Sysphues had it easy trying to roll a boulder up a mountain.  Virgin Trains USA is trying to roll a boulder up a cliff. 

thelakelander

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Re: Denver Union Station: A successful example for the JRTC
« Reply #46 on: January 16, 2020, 08:41:33 AM »

If you're putting money down in Vegas, put your money on JAX's station turning out like St. Paul's, not Denver's.   And other than the quarter of a billion pissed away on SPUD, STPL would be a decent result for a city like JAX.

  Denver's an outlier.  There's a ton a things that came together long, long before the bureaucrats had even bothered to start the paperwork for the processes that allowed for development on the empty land they had.  It's gets attention because it looks great.  Most union station projects result in nothing like this because 95% of what's needed is beyond any city's powers.

SPUD is a great example. Still brings various modes together and has attracted TOD. Jax would be lucky to have things turn out similar.
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Kerry

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Re: Denver Union Station: A successful example for the JRTC
« Reply #47 on: January 16, 2020, 03:06:45 PM »
Heck, I would be happy with Joliet Union Station.

https://www.jolietunionstation.com/
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Peter Griffin

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Re: Denver Union Station: A successful example for the JRTC
« Reply #48 on: January 16, 2020, 03:20:31 PM »
I'm just excited tor the JRTC to open. It's pretty multi-modal, and seems like a more sensible location for a transit hub than Rosa Parks Station. The potential for future integration of Amtrak is neat and something to hopefully look forward to.

Just out of curiosity, does anybody here actually use mass transit? I've been meaning to take the bus to work for a while now to give it a spin but have yet to.

bl8jaxnative

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Re: Denver Union Station: A successful example for the JRTC
« Reply #49 on: January 16, 2020, 03:25:53 PM »
I wouldn't say that Jacksonville would be lucky to have a SPUD. 

SPUD  claims to bring them together but it doesn't.  Nothing's been gained by bring the modes together other than empty fulfilling of some bureaucrats bucket list.

SPUDs in lowertown neighborhood of downtown STPL.  First off, it's impossible to not build something there that's not a "TOD".   Really a bit too wedded to the brochure words if you're throwing them around there, IMHO.

As for what ti's attracted, nothing.  There was development for decades as SPUD sat half empty ever since BN moved HQ to Ft. Worth.    It's been superfluous to downtown St. Paul's turnaround over the last generation. 

Setting that aside, it would be nice see Amtrak move back back downtown.   I can't imagine it would be a cheap move though.   There's no facilities and no track down there today.   

Then again, Virgin's a land development play.    I wouldn't be surprised to see them work with some developer  in northern St. John's county to drop in a station between Ponte Verdra and Palencia and declare that to the northern terminus and the JAX station.

Kerry

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Re: Denver Union Station: A successful example for the JRTC
« Reply #50 on: January 16, 2020, 03:36:12 PM »
I'm just excited tor the JRTC to open. It's pretty multi-modal, and seems like a more sensible location for a transit hub than Rosa Parks Station. The potential for future integration of Amtrak is neat and something to hopefully look forward to.

Just out of curiosity, does anybody here actually use mass transit? I've been meaning to take the bus to work for a while now to give it a spin but have yet to.

I've tried the bus here in Jax but it didn't fit my transit needs at the time.  I take rail mass transit in every city that has it when I am traveling for vacation or work.
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thelakelander

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Re: Denver Union Station: A successful example for the JRTC
« Reply #51 on: January 16, 2020, 04:33:06 PM »
I wouldn't say that Jacksonville would be lucky to have a SPUD. 

SPUD  claims to bring them together but it doesn't.  Nothing's been gained by bring the modes together other than empty fulfilling of some bureaucrats bucket list.

SPUDs in lowertown neighborhood of downtown STPL.  First off, it's impossible to not build something there that's not a "TOD".   Really a bit too wedded to the brochure words if you're throwing them around there, IMHO.

As for what ti's attracted, nothing.  There was development for decades as SPUD sat half empty ever since BN moved HQ to Ft. Worth.    It's been superfluous to downtown St. Paul's turnaround over the last generation.

There appears to be infill development built immediately across the street recently. Also an attraction of bringing modes together is stimulating consistent foot traffic. That helps the marketplace for market rate adjacent infill development and small businesses catering to said foot traffic.

Quote
Setting that aside, it would be nice see Amtrak move back back downtown.   I can't imagine it would be a cheap move though.   There's no facilities and no track down there today.

Depends on the definition of cheap. We could easy do it for a fraction of Lot J. Perhaps cheaper than buying and demoing the Landing. But its more expensive than building a Waffle House.

Quote
Then again, Virgin's a land development play.    I wouldn't be surprised to see them work with some developer  in northern St. John's county to drop in a station between Ponte Verdra and Palencia and declare that to the northern terminus and the JAX station.

Makes sense. Especially with St. Augustine.
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thelakelander

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Re: Denver Union Station: A successful example for the JRTC
« Reply #52 on: January 16, 2020, 04:41:24 PM »
Just out of curiosity, does anybody here actually use mass transit? I've been meaning to take the bus to work for a while now to give it a spin but have yet to.

I commute via the Skyway when I'm working out of my DT office.
"A man who views the world the same at 50 as he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life.” - Muhammad Ali

bl8jaxnative

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Re: Denver Union Station: A successful example for the JRTC
« Reply #53 on: January 17, 2020, 11:16:47 AM »
There appears to be infill development built immediately across the street recently. Also an attraction of bringing modes together is stimulating consistent foot traffic. That helps the marketplace for market rate adjacent infill development and small businesses catering to said foot traffic.

Again, that redevelopment was happening in that block long before they rehabbed SPUD.   The areas in that part of downtown that was largely empty in recent years that have been developed  is on the other side of downtown from SPUD,  between east 7th and  I94.

As for the foot traffic, it's been open for nearly a decade and it ain't there.  The place is empty.   There was a Greek place that was in there forever, like 30 years ago ( sorry for confusion, some of SPUD has always been open in use; like river side lots of use by USPS, so it may be confusing given the talk of the quarter of a _BILLION_ used to re-open it.  )  They're gone now, IIRC.  In the last handful of years, a hanful of places have come in gone in there.  No one's made a go of it because the foot traffic is nonexistant and there's no parking.


If you live or work in downtown STPL it's a great place to go to study and think.  Very quiet.

The lack of foot traffic is well documented.

    Bringing these modes together has not resulted in more foot traffic.  Riders needing to transfer do it where they've always done, over at 4th / 5th and Cedar / Minnesota.  That's where the N-S + E-W bus lines come together along with the LRT.



thelakelander

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Re: Denver Union Station: A successful example for the JRTC
« Reply #54 on: January 17, 2020, 11:45:30 AM »
Funding was approved as far back as 2005 and here's their 2010 plan and real estate development strategy:

https://www.hraadvisors.com/portfolio/st-paul-union-depot/

You would know better than me if any of the sites and things discussed in this development strategy are related to what has actually happened since 2005. It also appears the $235 million SPUD isn't complete. Phase three goes through 2030 in the document, so it may be too early to nail the coffin shut on its ability to become a positive in the reactivation of the surrounding properties.

With that said, still a great example though.
"A man who views the world the same at 50 as he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life.” - Muhammad Ali

bl8jaxnative

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Re: Denver Union Station: A successful example for the JRTC
« Reply #55 on: February 29, 2020, 07:40:47 PM »
Yes, a great example of pissing away a quarter of a billion dollars.