Author Topic: Denver Union Station: A successful example for the JRTC  (Read 2765 times)

thelakelander

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Denver Union Station: A successful example for the JRTC
« on: January 07, 2020, 08:17:25 AM »
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With JTA having dreams of stimulating transit oriented development around the JRTC, we take a look at a highly successful example of a mixed-use transportation hub: Denver's Union Station

Read More: https://www.thejaxsonmag.com/article/denver-union-station-a-successful-example-for-the-jrtc/
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avonjax

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Re: Denver Union Station: A successful example for the JRTC
« Reply #1 on: January 07, 2020, 11:17:31 AM »
The tragedy is we learn nothing. We just keep stumbling over our own two feet. Jacksonville keeps blinders on and sees nothing outside. Our train station could be just as beautiful as theirs but will it reach it's potential? It is Jacksonville after all. The city that only knows how to demolish.

Kerry

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Re: Denver Union Station: A successful example for the JRTC
« Reply #2 on: January 07, 2020, 01:28:30 PM »
How about this:

Move the Convention Center events to other venues like the Hyatt and VyStar Arena,
Move MOSH and their $80 million expansion to Jacksonville Terminals,
Move Friendship Fountain and it's multimillion upgrade to the former Landing site,
Sell all the park land of the current MOSH and Friendship Fountain at market price to private parties,
Use the funds from that sale to do a streetscape make-over of the CBD to include 2-way streets, wider sidewalks, bike lanes, street furniture, parking upgrade, and lighting,
and finally do a realistic RFP for a moderate convention center in the 200,000 sq ft range.

The Franklin Institute in Philadelphia
« Last Edit: January 07, 2020, 01:32:20 PM by Kerry »
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vicupstate

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Re: Denver Union Station: A successful example for the JRTC
« Reply #3 on: January 07, 2020, 01:31:58 PM »
How about this:

Move the Convention Center events to other venues like the Hyatt and VyStar Arena,
Move MOSH and their $80 million expansion to Jacksonville Terminals,
Move Friendship Fountain and it's multimillion upgrade to the former Landing site,
Sell all the park land of the current MOSH and Friendship Fountain at market price to private parties,
Use the funds from that sale to do a streetscape make-over of the CBD to include 2-way streets, wider sidewalks, bike lanes, street furniture, parking upgrade, and lighting,
and finally do a realistic RFP for a moderate convention center in the 200,000 sq ft range.

Not a bad plan but what's in it for Curry?
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Kerry

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Re: Denver Union Station: A successful example for the JRTC
« Reply #4 on: January 07, 2020, 01:33:01 PM »
How about this:

Move the Convention Center events to other venues like the Hyatt and VyStar Arena,
Move MOSH and their $80 million expansion to Jacksonville Terminals,
Move Friendship Fountain and it's multimillion upgrade to the former Landing site,
Sell all the park land of the current MOSH and Friendship Fountain at market price to private parties,
Use the funds from that sale to do a streetscape make-over of the CBD to include 2-way streets, wider sidewalks, bike lanes, street furniture, parking upgrade, and lighting,
and finally do a realistic RFP for a moderate convention center in the 200,000 sq ft range.

Not a bad plan but what's in it for Curry?

A kick in the nuts.  Which is good, because that is exactly what he needs.
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Ocklawaha

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Re: Denver Union Station: A successful example for the JRTC
« Reply #5 on: January 07, 2020, 01:50:39 PM »
Denver Union Station is EXACTLY what Jacksonville needs to do with THE JACKSONVILLE TERMINAL STATION.  Fix the viaduct and get all tracks and new high-level (train floor level) platforms above the flood plane.

We have one other rail possibility that no one is mentioning. Sunrail which operates over the CSX/FDOT A-Line is very likely to morph into a Orlando-Lakeland-Tampa-St. Petersburg Florida versión of CAL TRAIN. How much more logical would it be to toss a few morning runs terminating and evening runs originating in downtown Jacksonville? Development of the A-Line corridor would save the state billions on parallel highway costs.
North Carolina is already doing this.

thelakelander

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Re: Denver Union Station: A successful example for the JRTC
« Reply #6 on: January 07, 2020, 01:57:43 PM »
At Curry's pace, he'll end up in jail the way news keeps coming out of city hall these days. As for the old terminal, there's a transportation center opening up next door in March and railroad tracks that will never move. It would be quite foolish to not include a passenger rail component in a space built exactly for that.

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Move the Convention Center events to other venues like the Hyatt and VyStar Arena,

Build an exhibition hall (essentially a Walmart box) on the former city hall annex site, attach it to the Hyatt's second floor meeting spaces and call it a day. That solves a lot of problems for a fraction of the expense of that silly convention center RFP.

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Use the funds from that sale to do a streetscape make-over of the CBD to include 2-way streets, wider sidewalks, bike lanes, street furniture, parking upgrade, and lighting,

Not sure MOSH needs $80 million but cut $100 million out of Lot J's $233 million in requested incentives and you can fund just about everything else listed with it.
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Kerry

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Re: Denver Union Station: A successful example for the JRTC
« Reply #7 on: January 07, 2020, 02:09:58 PM »
Virgin Rail and SunRail coming to Jax are so far into the future planning for them now at the expense of other uses is useless.  Might as well say we shouldn't build anything in LaVilla so we have room for the SpacePort.
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thelakelander

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Re: Denver Union Station: A successful example for the JRTC
« Reply #8 on: January 07, 2020, 02:30:58 PM »
We have one other rail possibility that no one is mentioning. Sunrail which operates over the CSX/FDOT A-Line is very likely to morph into a Orlando-Lakeland-Tampa-St. Petersburg Florida versión of CAL TRAIN. How much more logical would it be to toss a few morning runs terminating and evening runs originating in downtown Jacksonville? Development of the A-Line corridor would save the state billions on parallel highway costs.
North Carolina is already doing this.

No matter what Virgin does down south, it will have impact on Amtrak's existing operations in Florida. If Virgin does make it to Tampa, outside of Winter Haven (really not that far from Virgin's proposed station between Lakeland and Auburndale), Sebring and Okeechobee, everything Amtrak currently serves south of Orlando would be served by Virgin. I seriously doubt Sebring and Okeechobee will save that route long term south of Orlando without significant changes in how it operates. It sort of sets Jax up as a potential transfer point between Amtrak and Virgin or a place where Amtrak trains either go down the FEC or CSX A Line. In either event, bringing back passenger rail operations back to the downtown terminal makes a lot of sense from a connectivity, access and economic development perspective.
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thelakelander

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Re: Denver Union Station: A successful example for the JRTC
« Reply #9 on: January 07, 2020, 02:34:33 PM »
Virgin Rail and SunRail coming to Jax are so far into the future planning for them now at the expense of other uses is useless.  Might as well say we shouldn't build anything in LaVilla so we have room for the SpacePort.

While I don't see SunRail coming to Jax (especially when locals are going to have to foot the bill soon), a new convention center or MOSH getting $80 million are both pipe dreams. Virgin will totally be dependent on what happens after Orlando opens in two years. We already have Amtrak. If we want it back downtown, that's something that can happen much easier than spending $80 on MOSH or +$100 million on a convention center.
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Kerry

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Re: Denver Union Station: A successful example for the JRTC
« Reply #10 on: January 07, 2020, 03:03:46 PM »
How many people board/unboard in Jacksonville now on Amtrak?  The internet says +70,000 but that seems a bit high since that would be 193 people/day average. That is about how many people are on an entire train.  I guess maybe you have 4 trains a day with people getting on and off plus the connect bus it gets down to about 19 people per operation (5 boarding and 5 alighting).
« Last Edit: January 07, 2020, 03:16:42 PM by Kerry »
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thelakelander

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Re: Denver Union Station: A successful example for the JRTC
« Reply #12 on: January 07, 2020, 03:16:20 PM »
I believe slightly under 20k use the Lakeland Amtrak station. That number didn't stop them from relocating Amtrak to their downtown. Now that new station has a food hall, 400 apartment units and an 8-story Class A office building sprouting up or proposed next to it.
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Kerry

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Re: Denver Union Station: A successful example for the JRTC
« Reply #13 on: January 07, 2020, 03:19:03 PM »
Well, I would be all for Amtrak returning to the station but at current passenger rates, that would leave about 95% of the building for other uses.
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thelakelander

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Re: Denver Union Station: A successful example for the JRTC
« Reply #14 on: January 07, 2020, 03:25:20 PM »
Of course....just like Denver. In their case, the old terminal was retrofitted into a mix of uses.
"A man who views the world the same at 50 as he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life.” - Muhammad Ali