Author Topic: Doro Fixture Site to be demolished, replaced with Apartments/Retail  (Read 4205 times)


Ken_FSU

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Re: Doro Fixture Site to be demolished, replaced with Apartments/Retail
« Reply #1 on: December 16, 2019, 09:15:31 AM »
Tried to give it 10 minutes before jumping to an opinion, but this is insane, right?

Demolishing 100 year old buildings full of character - buildings perfectly suited to complement the city's $230+ million investment in Lot J as an entertainment district - and replacing them with an apartment complex?

When so much other empty land is already available downtown?

Am I crazy? Is this especially egregious, even amongst our large pool of egregious demos?
« Last Edit: December 16, 2019, 09:18:44 AM by Ken_FSU »

Steve

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Re: Doro Fixture Site to be demolished, replaced with Apartments/Retail
« Reply #2 on: December 16, 2019, 09:16:23 AM »
https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/article/apartments-retail-rooftop-bar-planned-for-doro-fixture-co-site-downtown

Welp.

Without any renderings, this seems like an opportunity to demolish a building and sit on the land. I'm honestly indifferent on whether the building should be saved, but we can't keep having demolition for nothing.

thelakelander

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Re: Doro Fixture Site to be demolished, replaced with Apartments/Retail
« Reply #3 on: December 16, 2019, 10:56:05 AM »
^Blame COJ. Our public policies push demolition over reuse. Downtown looks like it looks for a reason and that reason isn't market place. It's incompetence or an unwillingness on our end to put the necessary tools in place needed to guide a certain outcome. In general, the development world is going to be reactionary. For example, if you want sprawl and autocentric new development, keep the Euclidean zoning structure we have city wide. If you want to really cut down on bike/ped accidents, make transit more viable and become more pedestrian friendly, lose the Euclidean structure and go with a Form Based Code. If you want more adaptive reuse and preservation, organize public policy to make that outcome more viable for the private sector.
« Last Edit: December 16, 2019, 10:59:51 AM by thelakelander »
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acme54321

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Re: Doro Fixture Site to be demolished, replaced with Apartments/Retail
« Reply #4 on: December 16, 2019, 11:17:24 AM »
There are some great bones on that block, it would be a shame to lose it all.  The article says that the developer is going to go after incentives from DIA so the city may have some influence on what goes on there.  Not that I'm holding my breath.

I-10east

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Re: Doro Fixture Site to be demolished, replaced with Apartments/Retail
« Reply #5 on: December 16, 2019, 12:15:16 PM »
I like the idea of apartments and retail in the stadium area, but tearing down historic buildings like Doro Furniture shouldn't be acceptable. Ideally Doro could be reused, and not a dormant historical landmark; I guess that ship has sailed though.

vicupstate

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Re: Doro Fixture Site to be demolished, replaced with Apartments/Retail
« Reply #6 on: December 16, 2019, 01:24:48 PM »
What really sucks is that the owner ORIGINALLY had great plans for this property. Exactly what you would want to see. What they are proposing sounds very cookie-cutter that could just as easily go 1-5 blocks in any direction.  Every effort should be made to just move this project to a different site.   
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jaxlongtimer

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Re: Doro Fixture Site to be demolished, replaced with Apartments/Retail
« Reply #7 on: December 16, 2019, 01:30:50 PM »
Quote
Iconic Real Estate Investments President Paul Grainger signed a purchase-and-sale agreement in June to sell the 1.77-acre site at 102 A. Philip Randolph Blvd. to Rise Properties LLC, part of Rise Development.

Name of the seller should be "Ironic", not "Iconic," given their willingness to turn this building over to a demolition developer.  They must already have a nod from the City that they will get the go-ahead to tear the building down to move forward on the deal.

This area is not yet Brooklyn so if we are already tearing down historic buildings here, nothing is sacred.

The lack of a grocery store and more in this area should give possible residents pause to live there.  And, who wants to battle Shad's entertainment and sports district traffic every time one wants to go on an outing.  Walkability should also be a concern as this is a bit away from the core of Downtown.  Seems there are far better options elsewhere.

Bill Hoff

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Re: Doro Fixture Site to be demolished, replaced with Apartments/Retail
« Reply #8 on: December 16, 2019, 08:24:52 PM »
Tried to give it 10 minutes before jumping to an opinion, but this is insane, right?

Demolishing 100 year old buildings full of character - buildings perfectly suited to complement the city's $230+ million investment in Lot J as an entertainment district - and replacing them with an apartment complex?

When so much other empty land is already available downtown?

Am I crazy? Is this especially egregious, even amongst our large pool of egregious demos?

Extremely, extremely disappointing.

vicupstate

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Re: Doro Fixture Site to be demolished, replaced with Apartments/Retail
« Reply #9 on: December 17, 2019, 10:21:34 AM »
I wonder if Shad Khan will put the kabosh on this to not be competition to Lot J. Apartments in this area are a pioneering feat to begin with.
« Last Edit: December 17, 2019, 11:25:51 AM by vicupstate »
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bl8jaxnative

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Re: Doro Fixture Site to be demolished, replaced with Apartments/Retail
« Reply #10 on: December 17, 2019, 01:34:03 PM »


Demolishing 100 year old buildings full of character -


It's a hodge podge of buildings, not one.    None of them are historically significant.  They're sitting empty, the floors lack height for modern amenities, etc.

The place generated less than $10k in property tax revenue.

Just one of those buildings w/ 60 units - 1/4th what is being built at Doro - paid a million dollars in property tax.

It would be insane not to demolish that rat trap for something modern, effecient and _____400_____ times times more valuable.



Peter Griffin

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Re: Doro Fixture Site to be demolished, replaced with Apartments/Retail
« Reply #11 on: December 17, 2019, 02:07:40 PM »


Demolishing 100 year old buildings full of character -


It's a hodge podge of buildings, not one.    None of them are historically significant.  They're sitting empty, the floors lack height for modern amenities, etc.

The place generated less than $10k in property tax revenue.

Just one of those buildings w/ 60 units - 1/4th what is being built at Doro - paid a million dollars in property tax.

It would be insane not to demolish that rat trap for something modern, effecient and _____400_____ times times more valuable.

THANK YOU.

I understand the sentiment in certain instances, but sometimes an old building is just an old building.

The Landing was built in '87, not historically significant. It never lived up to its original sales pitch of "revitalizing downtown" nor did ANY Roush Festival Marketplace. Yet people complain that it's coming down

The old firehouse on Riverside is nondescript and doesn't look like ANYTHING cool, yet people are complaining that a new office building is going in there.  (The firestation downtown, on the other hand, is gorgeous!)

It's OK to let old buildings go, in my opinion. Not every old structure has to be reused. Building new, modern, useful buildings in the footprints of old disused buildings allows modern amenities to come to the area rather than sprawling out to the suburbs, which is a benefit. More apartments and retail downtown is what we're all hoping for, and this project has just that!

downtownbrown

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Re: Doro Fixture Site to be demolished, replaced with Apartments/Retail
« Reply #12 on: December 17, 2019, 02:16:21 PM »
Tried to give it 10 minutes before jumping to an opinion, but this is insane, right?

Demolishing 100 year old buildings full of character - buildings perfectly suited to complement the city's $230+ million investment in Lot J as an entertainment district - and replacing them with an apartment complex?

When so much other empty land is already available downtown?

Am I crazy? Is this especially egregious, even amongst our large pool of egregious demos?

kind of a cool building, but I don't think you can say there are other empty land options.  Depends on how much the guy paid, and what agreements on places like the shipyards are in place.  People go nuts here every time something gets knocked down (like the hideous court house and annex) but the story here is 247 new units.  Downtown needs more residents badly.

vicupstate

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Re: Doro Fixture Site to be demolished, replaced with Apartments/Retail
« Reply #13 on: December 17, 2019, 02:31:48 PM »


Demolishing 100 year old buildings full of character -


It's a hodge podge of buildings, not one.    None of them are historically significant.  They're sitting empty, the floors lack height for modern amenities, etc.

The place generated less than $10k in property tax revenue.

Just one of those buildings w/ 60 units - 1/4th what is being built at Doro - paid a million dollars in property tax.

It would be insane not to demolish that rat trap for something modern, effecient and _____400_____ times times more valuable.


Most buildings from that era had high ceilings by today's standards. Do you have evidence to the contrary?  I have some other comments, but I don't have time to delve into them at the moment.
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thelakelander

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Re: Doro Fixture Site to be demolished, replaced with Apartments/Retail
« Reply #14 on: December 17, 2019, 03:04:33 PM »
It's a hodge podge of buildings, not one.    None of them are historically significant.

THANK YOU.

I understand the sentiment in certain instances, but sometimes an old building is just an old building.

The Landing was built in '87, not historically significant. It never lived up to its original sales pitch of "revitalizing downtown" nor did ANY Roush Festival Marketplace. Yet people complain that it's coming down

The old firehouse on Riverside is nondescript and doesn't look like ANYTHING cool, yet people are complaining that a new office building is going in there.  (The firestation downtown, on the other hand, is gorgeous!)

It's OK to let old buildings go, in my opinion. Not every old structure has to be reused. Building new, modern, useful buildings in the footprints of old disused buildings allows modern amenities to come to the area rather than sprawling out to the suburbs, which is a benefit. More apartments and retail downtown is what we're all hoping for, and this project has just that!



It's always best to move away from opinions regarding what is historically significant and deal with what the actual determining factors are on the books legally. You can find everything you need in Chapter 307 - Historic Preservation and Protection in the city's Code of Ordinances. Weeding through the text, here's what things actually boil down to in Sec. 307.104, assuming a landmarking application was submitted:


In the event the owner of the property expresses an objection in writing to the Commission regarding local landmark status, at least four of the following seven criteria must be met.

If the owner of the subject property does not express such objection, only two of the following criteria must be met.

(1)Its value as a significant reminder of the cultural, historical, architectural, or archaeological heritage of the City, state or nation.

(2)Its location is the site of a significant local, state or national event.

(3)It is identified with a person or persons who significantly contributed to the development of the City, state or nation.

(4)It is identified as the work of a master builder, designer, or architect whose individual work has influenced the development of the City, state or nation.

(5)Its value as a building is recognized for the quality of its architecture, and it retains sufficient elements showing its architectural significance.

(6)It has distinguishing characteristics of an architectural style valuable for the study of a period, method of construction, or use of indigenous materials.

(7)Its suitability for preservation or restoration.


Source: https://library.municode.com/fl/jacksonville/codes/code_of_ordinances?nodeId=TITVIICOHIPR_CH307HIPRPR





While it takes a lot of research in a city that has long forgotten its past, either a case can be made or not. Everything else from opinions of if old buildings should/should not be saved to development proformas, etc. are noise.

With that said, being familiar with the general area's history and having experience doing this process, I doubt the case could be made for all of the structures on that block. However, it would be pretty easy to meet the criteria under (1), (5), (6), and (7). 

(1) - Built in 1904, it's definitely a significant (hell it's about the last thing left over there) reminder of the maritime industrial district that literally built the city.

(5) - We don't build retail and industrial buildings with those type of architectural details any more. The building appears to retain much of its original architectural integrity as well.

(6) - It's a great example of late 19th century/early 20th century industrial vernacular architecture. The last one left in the Sports District built in the post Great Fire of 1901 building boom.

(7) - It's structurally sound. It ain't falling down on its own any time soon.



Cast iron storefronts? That's rare in Jax and literally non-existent in the Sports District.


Old freight elevator


Love the doors


The old machinery is priceless


Original growth columns, joists and truss system. They don't build them like this anymore.


This is the type of spaces rapidly growing sunbelt cities like Charlotte still wish they had to work with. Once it's gone, it's gone.



Now (2), (3), and (4) would require a bit more in depth research.

(2) - Maybe it was the site of something significant or maybe it was not. This would involve taking a deep dive into the history of Doro Fixtures, the people associated with it and the history of the long erased Italian immigrant community in East Jacksonville.

(3) (4) - I don't know who was the architect or builder. More in depth research on that individual or firm would be needed to see what type of influence they may have had on the city, state or nation. Another avenue to look into is the history of George Doro himself. As a millwork business that lasted more than a century, there could be an argument that he himself is significant in the development of the region or area where his products were used in the building industry.

To wrap this up, here are two examples:

Under normal circumstances, this shotgun house would not be considered worth preserving to many. However, it is landmarked because this is where Zora Neale Hurston lived during her time in Jacksonville. It met at least two of the 7 criteria identified above.




Here is another building. It's a random warehouse in Springfield. It could be a tear down that no one would lose any sleep over because it's not locally landmarked or on the national register.



However, the owner is in the process of removing the decades old siding, revealing a majority glass wall warehouse. Dig into its history, it's associated with Albert Kahn, an internationally known industrial architect and significantly more influential on the development of the country than someone like Henry J. Klutho. While Detroit would be full of old early 20th century examples, it's certainly not something that comes in large supply in Florida. If an application to designate it as a local historic landmark were submitted, it would not take much to get it approved.




All this is to say, there are parts of this site that are certainly historically significant, if meeting the criteria is the determining factor and not personal opinions. My hope would be that as much of what is significantly unique can be worked into a plan going forward that would benefit the seller, buyer, downtown and the community. I do believe with creativity, viable solutions can materialize.
« Last Edit: December 17, 2019, 03:10:16 PM by thelakelander »
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