Khan, Jaguars expect Lot J development to begin early 2020

[Charles Hunter]

I don't think the NFL will allow a team in Orlando - too close to Tampa Bay.

[Todd_Parker]

I don't think the NFL will allow a team in Orlando - too close to Tampa Bay.

Distance from Baltimore (Ravens) to D.C. (Washington Football Team) is 32 miles. Distance from Orlando to Tampa is 80-ish miles. If NFL owners can make more money with a team in Orlando rather than Jax, they won’t hesitate. Just ask San Diego, St. Louis, and Oakland.

[Steve]

I don't think the NFL will allow a team in Orlando - too close to Tampa Bay.

Distance from Baltimore (Ravens) to D.C. (Washington Football Team) is 32 miles. Distance from Orlando to Tampa is 80-ish miles. If NFL owners can make more money with a team in Orlando rather than Jax, they won’t hesitate. Just ask San Diego, St. Louis, and Oakland.

Charles Hunter is correct....at least not without Tampa Ownership's approval. Orlando is officially a Secondary Market for Tampa (and Jacksonville), so no team can enter a secondary market of another team without their approval....even if the other 31 owners agree to it.

In the example you cited, Washington had to sign off on Cleveland's "relocation" to Baltimore. Originally Jack Kent Cooke was opposed (remember, he voted for Carolina and Jacksonville in the expansion process 2 years earlier when Baltimore bid)). The reason he reversed course - he wanted the shiny new stadium in Landover, Maryland and he wanted Maryland tax dollars to build it. If he opposed the move (When realistically he knew the market was strong enough to support both teams), then he wasn't likely to get Maryland state dollars for his stadium.

Orlando is a totally different animal. While they certainly have the tourism and hotels, Washington and Baltimore are the #7 and #19 Metros in the US, respectively. Tampa is #17 and Orlando is #32. Much different animal.

Oh.....and Orlando has refused to fund a stadium for their bowl games while the Citrus Bowl is falling in on itself.

[landfall]

Couple of things I've thought about in hindsight.

1) Why the change from a convention center to a four seasons? Weirdly, and someone could correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't putting the convention center in the sports district have given us a unique position in the country? I know they have similar districts in places like Philly, but I just mean in terms of the collective gamut of events venues within close proximity - Stadium, ballpark, arena, ampitheater, convention center. Additionally, do four seasons offer anything different to typical hotels from a conferencing/convention stand point?

2) The failure to attract an office tenant - As someone pointed out a few posts previously, how on earth did they fail to do this when as cited, theres never been a better time arguably to move to florida and do business?


Conversely however, what is the plan b as an alternative to turning this down? Whats the alternative If anything I see more bureaucracy and red tape with the shipyards given we have the landswap issue on top of the environmental stuff we already had with lot J.

I think we are now looking at a situation where the team leave. This feels too similar to all the other relocations I've seen down the years. It always starts with a vote being rejected or funding for something being knocked back.

[fhrathore]

I don't think the NFL will allow a team in Orlando - too close to Tampa Bay.

Distance from Baltimore (Ravens) to D.C. (Washington Football Team) is 32 miles. Distance from Orlando to Tampa is 80-ish miles. If NFL owners can make more money with a team in Orlando rather than Jax, they won’t hesitate. Just ask San Diego, St. Louis, and Oakland.

As someone who lives in the DMV area, I can tell you those 32 miles feel much longer via car, perhaps longer than 80-ish.

[marcuscnelson]

Couple of things I've thought about in hindsight.

1) Why the change from a convention center to a four seasons? Weirdly, and someone could correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't putting the convention center in the sports district have given us a unique position in the country? I know they have similar districts in places like Philly, but I just mean in terms of the collective gamut of events venues within close proximity - Stadium, ballpark, arena, ampitheater, convention center. Additionally, do four seasons offer anything different to typical hotels from a conferencing/convention stand point?

The Four Seasons has long been expected in some form, the more recent renderings are just the first time they've been called that. Previously there was a tower near the convention center concept believed to be it.

More importantly, rumor is that Curry's/Khan's plan became building a convention center at the site of the jail with the returns from selling JEA to FPL. Obviously that didn't happen, so it's somewhat in limbo. Meanwhile Lori Boyer at DIA reportedly wants to build one on the old parking lot of the Landing, but there's no telling when/if that would happen, or if that site really makes any sense beyond being on the river.

One of the issues with the talk about having the venues together is that there isn't much in terms of daily activity to encourage activity in the area. If there isn't a major event - be it a game, show, or convention - is it going to be a massive ghost town? The goal of a district should be constant, even if not bursting at the seams, activity. Clustering does work, but you need to cluster different uses beyond just arenas. That's why there's been so much talk here about keeping it cheap & simple and just adding an exhibition hall to the back of the Hyatt so that conventions are now in the heart of downtown.

2) The failure to attract an office tenant - As someone pointed out a few posts previously, how on earth did they fail to do this when as cited, theres never been a better time arguably to move to florida and do business?

There are others more qualified to speak to this than I am.

Conversely however, what is the plan b as an alternative to turning this down? Whats the alternative If anything I see more bureaucracy and red tape with the shipyards given we have the landswap issue on top of the environmental stuff we already had with lot J.

I think we are now looking at a situation where the team leave. This feels too similar to all the other relocations I've seen down the years. It always starts with a vote being rejected or funding for something being knocked back.

To turning down the Lot J deal? It's somewhat unclear. The Jags are reportedly pivoting to the Shipyards, but it's unclear if City Hall (meaning Curry) ever came up with an alternative, likely assuming it would pass with enough arm-twisting.

This forum, however, has offered plenty of alternatives over the years. There is a substantial need to focus our incentive capacity on supporting projects in the urban core, like what JWB and Augustine Development are building, or on the Laura Street Trio. For a lot less money than Lot J we can get more residential units and more hotel rooms, in a walkable area that isn't a mile away from other development. Making the necessary policy and infrastructure changes to foster an environment for developers to adaptive reuse and infill is a much larger bang for our buck.

In terms of the Live! arena, it's truly a shame that Curry knocked down the Landing thinking he would get a smaller one on the taxpayer's dime at the stadium, but what's done is done. There are now six-year-old plans to turn the Landing into a mixed-use development with a plaza, but those seem to have been left by the wayside in favor of a largely passive greenspace that we will spend the next two or so years trying to figure out what to do with. Personally, I'm a supporter of going back to Cordish and asking about the prospect of building a more realistically-priced development, perhaps on some of the other lots at TIAA Bank Field (Ennis has talked about that at length).

In order to keep myself from continuing to ramble, the point is that there is a lot we could do as an alternative. The question is whether our city's leadership is interested or willing to take charge in making it happen. Anything is possible in terms of the team leaving (Lamping did say they were a free agent team), but as Nate Monroe has said, if they were really going to leave from the failure of Lot J, there's not much we could have done to stop them anyway.

[heights unknown]

I don't think the NFL will allow a team in Orlando - too close to Tampa Bay.

You could be right, but IMO I don't think so. Why? Oakland was right across the bay from San Francisco and that worked out for years...didn't it? And of course you have instances of two teams in one city, though those cities are big league world class. Apples and oranges I guess, but I don't think the NFL would rule that out. Orlando has a huge metro population and so does Tampa, so there shouldn't be no conflict there relative to fans and TV viewership. I could be wrong, but just my opinion.

[landfall]

Fair points Marcus. I didn't actually realise that was part of the JEA privatisation to put a convention center there on the jail. I guess my point in terms of a plan b is really we are back to square one, there wasn't an alternative. I'm hoping sometime in the next year the Jags/City/County can work on a realistic compromise rather than a yes votes v no votes divide occurring and cliques developing. I wasn't totally enamored with Cordish as a developer as I feel the tenant mix in their developments is uninspiring and also given some of the other developments posted on here like Midtown Tampa I felt we were being short changed and getting not a lot for a lot. I'd hope any mayoral candidates are proactive in engaging with the team and any riverfront development than simply treating them as an afterthought. Maybe thats just the sports fan in me.

Regarding Orlando and to an extent this probably extends to Jacksonville. As much as the population of sun belt cities is growing, much of that growth is transient and coming from people who already are fans of teams in other cities hence the difficulty in attracting fans proportionate to actual population. I expect it'll be the usual suspects who would be a threat to taking the team i.e. San Antonio.

[jaxlongtimer]

Couple of things I've thought about in hindsight.

1) Why the change from a convention center to a four seasons? Weirdly, and someone could correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't putting the convention center in the sports district have given us a unique position in the country? I know they have similar districts in places like Philly, but I just mean in terms of the collective gamut of events venues within close proximity - Stadium, ballpark, arena, ampitheater, convention center. Additionally, do four seasons offer anything different to typical hotels from a conferencing/convention stand point?

I don't think the Four Seasons is spotted in the same place as the convention center alluded to in Khan's renderings.  The FS would be in Metro Park and the CC would be on the eastern edge of the Shipyards.  This would essentially still be in the "stadium district."  While I hate to see our riverfront not used as public green space, if something is going to go there, subject to the "deal," I agree that the idea of the CC being with the stadium, arena, baseball grounds, amphitheater and fair grounds could make good sense, especially with some synergies over shared events and parking.  Plus, I think the area allows for either a larger and more flexible CC and/or for expansion in the future if the City's needs continue to grow.

I think we are now looking at a situation where the team leave. This feels too similar to all the other relocations I've seen down the years. It always starts with a vote being rejected or funding for something being knocked back.

If the Jags can get a sweetheart deal on a billion dollar stadium redo here, I think all else will be "forgiven."  This is why Lot J, Metro Park and the Shipyards should all be considered in one massive plan and deal.  I think the main advantage to Khan, had he gotten Lot J, was to leverage the City's massive investment in Lot J into getting a better stadium deal when it comes around.  In other words, the City would spend hundreds of millions more to "protect" the hundreds of millions already sunk in Lot J.  Curry was being sucker punched and wasn't smart enough or otherwise blinded by Khan to realize it.  Just plain stupid or crooked, take your pick.

[thelakelander]

There would be nothing unique about putting the convention center near the stadium. Chicago and Detroit are two NFL examples of already having that situation and doing it better. There's not much Jax can do to be unique, other than being itself and building up upon its existing and historical assets.

Also, the Four Seasons plan is dramatically different from the old convention center rendering:

Convention Center Plan:



Four Seasons Plan:


With Lot J, they played the Curry hard ball game of take it or leave it, and it got left. I have no doubt that if any of Lot J is feasible and gives them a chance to make money, those uses will resurface. Keep in mind, resurfacing could simply mean these similar uses end up in the plan for Metropolitan Park.

[MusicMan]

Hasn't there also been talk a bout a NEW stadium? Where does that go? Remove the current one?  So bright and shiny development will be next to a multi year construction and demolition zone for several years?

[thelakelander]

They've talked about revamping the existing stadium. So it won't be moving to a different location.

[Ken_FSU]

Couple of things I've thought about in hindsight.

1) Why the change from a convention center to a four seasons? Weirdly, and someone could correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't putting the convention center in the sports district have given us a unique position in the country? I know they have similar districts in places like Philly, but I just mean in terms of the collective gamut of events venues within close proximity - Stadium, ballpark, arena, ampitheater, convention center. Additionally, do four seasons offer anything different to typical hotels from a conferencing/convention stand point?

Particularly with the failure of Lot J to pass, we'd be both insane and hypocritical to build a convention center in the sports district. The reason the Ford on Bay convention center was killed (aside from the cost, the city's utter shock that no one was willing to shoulder the cost to built it for us, and the Jags' harpooning of the procedures) was because a previous DIA study identified a lack of complemeting entertainment uses as a major impediment to Lot J's success.

As Marcus mentioned above, in the absence of Lot J, where are event attendees going to go during the evenings? If you've been to a convention in Kansas City, for example, there's really great synergy between the convention center and Power & Light, which is only like two or three blocks away. In the absence that nightlife component at the Sports Complex, we'd be setting up a convention center to fail.

Minor clarification on future convention center plans:

The DIA has kind of thrown their hands in the air for now, at least until Curry is out.

They've always been operating on a separate (read: public) track as the Curry admin (read: secretive).

The convention center at the Courthouse site was torpedoed by Curry and his secretive talks with the Jags about a Shipyards CC.

The DIA was never in the loop on this, and started discussing the riverfront space between the Landing and Hyatt for an alternative location after the courthouse RFP was abandoned.

When the pandemic crushed conventions, the Jags shifted their focus to the Four Seasons stuff, shelved their plans for a potential CC down the road, and Curry and his team started floating the idea of replacing the jail with a CC sometime down the line.

For stuff like this, and the MOSH, and Lot J, it'd be a faulty assumption to think that anything is being communicated back to the DIA. Instead, a lot of the backdoor Curry/Hughes nonsense has made the DIA's job harder with their existing projects (e.g. RFPing a convention center and having to dismiss all entries; selling Related on a museum-front residential complex only to find out in the press that MOSH is moving to the Northbank, etc.). Pure speculation, but Aundra Wallace (for my money, the best leader the DIA ever had) decided to step down around the same time that Curry started heavily meddling with downtown.

2) The failure to attract an office tenant - As someone pointed out a few posts previously, how on earth did they fail to do this when as cited, theres never been a better time arguably to move to florida and do business?

Different timings. The office tower already had a foot out the door before the covid-19 pandemic came along and all these other businesses started relocating to states like Florida and Texas. Throw in the fact that no business wants to commit to moving into a speculative office tower that may not be ready for move-in for 7 years. Also, throw in the fact that we've squandered the greatest economic boom of our generation and failed to build the type of downtown and supporting infrastructure that would attract these companies.

I've mentioned this before, but what in God's name would have happened had JEA actually selected Lot J for their new headquarters? Cordish's best and final offer showed a construction timeline of less than two years, which is totally at odds with the 7 years listed in the Lot J development agreement.

Ideally, any office tenant at Lot J or the proposed office tower at Met Park would be net new to the area. Extra ideally, all of those Chamber and City trips to London to "drum up business for Jacksonville" would have resulted in an international relocaction/expansion by now.

Conversely however, what is the plan b as an alternative to turning this down? Whats the alternative If anything I see more bureaucracy and red tape with the shipyards given we have the landswap issue on top of the environmental stuff we already had with lot J.

To me, the Shipyards plan is going to be a harder sell to the public than Lot J, even if the price tag is $150 million instead of $249 million. At least with Lot J we ended up with a city-owned public amenity (the Live! venue) that the average citizen could enjoy, would increase quality of life in the city, and would help bring new events to the sports complex and retain the existing ones.

Where's the taxpayer benefit to a Four Seasons hotel that the average citizen will never use (and don't tell me bed taxes), an orthopedic center primarily used by the Jags (like the ones the Vikings and Packers have recently built), and office and residential? It just isn't there. We'll hear the $150 million price tag from the city and the Jags, but the real hidden cost is going to be building a new park to replace Metro Park with, assuming the Feds even agree to the land swap (which is going to be tougher with a new administration coming in). Should come as no shock that the word is that Hughes and the Curry admin have made no friends with the feds on this, and that part of the reason the bill was rescinded to pay back the feds in lieu of a land swap was because the feds aren't convinced we had that contractual right to begin with.

Lori Boyer was supposed to have more info to share on the land swap back in November once the DIA took over, but something tells me we would have heard something by now had the response been, "Sure! Develop that land!"

I think we are now looking at a situation where the team leave. This feels too similar to all the other relocations I've seen down the years. It always starts with a vote being rejected or funding for something being knocked back.

The hope here is that sanity prevails on the Jags' side and guys like Shad Khan and Mark Lamping know deep down that the deal that Curry offered was a shit deal for the taxpayers and that no city in their right mind would accept it. Paul Harden in particular is smart enough to know that Curry tanked this one, rather than the city actively telling the Jags to fuck off.

Goes without saying, but just watching everything that's happened in the aftermath of Lot J, ownership continues to act in a way that suggests they want to make this franchise successful in Jacksonville. Judging by the season ticket deposits, that shouldn't be a problem.

Hasn't there also been talk a bout a NEW stadium? Where does that go? Remove the current one?  So bright and shiny development will be next to a multi year construction and demolition zone for several years?

The Jags don't want a new stadium. It really is as simple as that. More specifically, they don't think there's enough untapped revenue in our market specific to our 7-8 regular season home games to justify the cost of a billion dollar stadium replacement. It's going to be a major rehab, like with Hard Rock in Miami, but it's not going to be a rebuild. Things that I've heard they're looking for include:

- Cover from the elements
- Widened concourses
- New press boxes
- Escalators
- New field drainage system that would divert water out of the sports complex for added resiliency
- New electrical system to replace the aging system in place

Here's a quote from Lamping:

"The question is what's the capacity of the market place," Lamping said. "Teams often build new stadiums because they believe there's an untapped river of revenue, and that they just didn't have the facility to take advantage of it. I'm not sure that's the case here. But we have to keep the stadium up to date."

Because the Jags have a smaller fanbase, the goal is going to continue to be trying to drive more 365/24/7 revenue out of that existing fanbase with these ancillary projects.

With Lot J, they played the Curry hard ball game of take it or leave it, and it got left. I have no doubt that if any of Lot J is feasible and gives them a chance to make money, those uses will resurface. Keep in mind, resurfacing could simply mean these similar uses end up in the plan for Metropolitan Park.

I hope you're right, particularly with the Live! component. The reason I'm not sure is because Cordish and the Jags have both insisted that Cordish has no interest in partnering with the franchise on anything below Bay Street. I don't think they want to be involved on the riverfront. Which sucks because the two most exciting, city-beneficial elements of the Lot J proposal were the Live! venue and the Live by Loews hotel. The city could have REALLY benefited from having those dining and entertaining options down by the stadium (particularly in partnership with a successful operator who was contractually committed to maintaining 75%+ occupancy). And having a nice hotel (without the Four Seasons ADR) would have been great for the sports complex as well.

Would really suck to see the Lot J project die entirely.

Was a great project, just needs some tweaks to the numbers.

Part of me wonders if the optics and support would have been better had the Jags had eliminated the $53 million benefit from the breadbox loan, but asked the city to pay for all of the Live! Venue.

So instead of:
- City and Cordish each pay $50 million for Live! City owns, Cordish operates
- City pays $73 million infrastructure
- City pays $53 million grant to help with residential and hotel; developer pays rest

The ask is:
- City funds the $100 million Live! venue; Cordish operates, pays operating costs; guarantees occupancy
- City pays $73 million infrastructure
- Developer pays 100% of costs for residential and hotel

We're still paying more than we should, but I wonder how much better the optics would have been had we positioned the public ask as being solely for the components that would be publicly owned (Live!, infrastructure) and positioned the developer contribution as 100% of the privately owned components (hotel, residential, office, etc.).

[vicupstate]

At this point the city has a massive amount of riverfront property and all the options and plans for any of it don't seem to be part of an overall plan at all, but conceived as singular siloed projects. Perhaps now is the time to truly master plan the entire Northbank/Southbank riverfront.

Waterfront vacant parcels currently: Landing, City Hall Annex, Old Courthouse, Shipyards, The District. SUPPOSEDLY the Berkman2 site will be vacant as well in the near future. PLUS, Metro Park may be moved and is essentially open space now anyway.

MOSH may move from the Southbank to the Northbank and River City Brewing Company is on board for redevelopment.   

Hire a world class planner like Sassaki to evaluate the entirety of DT and decide the highest and best use for all of those parcels. Include all city owned property around the stadium and the jail too.   

   

[heights unknown]

Awesome. Let's get moving. Next!