Author Topic: Khan, Jaguars expect Lot J development to begin early 2020  (Read 88145 times)

Fallen Buckeye

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Re: Khan, Jaguars expect Lot J development to begin early 2020
« Reply #825 on: January 13, 2021, 10:06:03 AM »
I watched most of the meeting up until Councilwoman Pittman's comments just before the vote. I couldn't listen to the nonsense anymore. I was pleased with the final outcome. Councilman Becton and Councilwoman Defoor made some great points from my point of view as a more conservative voter. The taxpayers would have to shoulder huge hidden costs in taking on more debt and the council didn't even have all the details (e.g.- pro forma) they need to evaluate the project. Plus, why should we provide a sweetheart deal to this business over others?

From a business perspective, I can appreciate the Jaguars organization using their resources to get the best deal. They brought all of the celebrity firepower to bear. They used their philanthropy to persuade a block of councilmembers. They used their relationships with officials. That's good business for them, but the city government with some notable exceptions failed to advocate for the constituents. Councilman Boylan even acknowledged that he was going to vote against the will of his constituents.

I just hope that now the deal has failed, and we see how council can magically summon hundreds of millions, that we see a greater willingness to invest in things that actually serve the wider public good.

vicupstate

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Re: Khan, Jaguars expect Lot J development to begin early 2020
« Reply #826 on: January 13, 2021, 10:45:00 AM »
So what does Lenny do now?  What is his priority?  Put it on autopilot and run out his term?  Does he work and concentrate on quality of life/quality of downtown investment?  Does he chase down the next Iguana proposal?  Does he find a way to keep the Jags here (all in number . . . Stadium and development)?  It does not appear Lenny can walk and chew gum.

Because Curry is NOT a public servant by any definition, but is a political operative/hack, he will do what such people do. He will seek revenge.
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CityLife

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Re: Khan, Jaguars expect Lot J development to begin early 2020
« Reply #827 on: January 13, 2021, 11:13:13 AM »
Ecstatic!  Wow and speechless!  Failed by one vote (Priestly Jackson should have been #8)!

She was rather hostile when I pointed out how disappointing it was to see her support this.

This is a flat out unacceptable thing for anyone to say, but especially a public servant.

“I don’t serve with a focus on male disappointments. I stated my position clearly and articulately on the record. You may disagree. That’s your prerogative. I stand by my vote & rationale.”

Imagine the shoe being reversed and a politician saying they don’t care what their female constituents think....

Ken_FSU

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Re: Khan, Jaguars expect Lot J development to begin early 2020
« Reply #828 on: January 13, 2021, 11:59:55 AM »
Man this whole debacle is PEAK Jacksonville. Now we are left with no Lot J and no Landing. Way to go Jax!!

It's just so mind-numbingly depressing how many victims are left in the wake of this debacle.

The Landing. The Hart Bridge Ramps. Welcome to Rockville. Jacobs and the other firms who put in good-faith proposals for the convention center RFP. The Bay Street Innovation Corridor. The MOSH. The USS Orleck. The Eastside. The Jumbo Shrimp. RISE with their Doro project. Officials from UF and Georgia who have been negotiating an extension of the FL/GA game with promises of a new entertainment complex. Even JEA, because a lot of very good, honest people wasted a lot of time vetting a headquarters proposal based on what we now know to be grossly unrealistic construction schedule (<2 years) for a Lot J parcel that the Jags didn't even have the right to develop at the time.

All negatively effected, driven off, destroyed, let down, had their time and resources wasted, or set up to fail because Curry wrote a check in secret that City Council was asked to cash with a gun to their heads.

And Curry has the nerve to go on Twitter pulling the tough guy act as though City Council dropped the ball on approving this thing when, at the end of the day, it was ultimately as much a referendum on his needlessly shady bullshit as it was a No vote on the project itself.

Guy should be ashamed of himself.

Lot J was the city's to lose. We had the capital in Shad Khan. We had the developer in Cordish. And we had a good project that would have improved quality of life in Jacksonville and boosted local revenues for the Jags.

All Curry needed to do was land the plane with as transparent and fair of a deal for taxpayers as you're going to get from the NFL racket.

I honestly think a one-third split between all three parties (the City, Jags, and Cordish) put through the proper channels sails through the DIA and is approved by City Council 19-0.

Instead, the mayor unilaterally offers a 50/50 split for no clear reason, which is effectively a 50/25/25 split for the City, the Jags, and Cordish.

I don't blame the developer for jumping at the deal, but they also should have been smart enough to read the tea leaves and come down a bit on that $65 million breadbox grant. Joyce Morgan, one of the no votes, straight up said that if the developer would have made some concessions with the breadbox, she would have voted yes. Even restructuring a decent portion of the upfront "loan" to a backend REV grant likely would have swung the one vote necessary to pass Lot J back in the Jags' favor.

Where I do blame Jags/Cordish though, and ultimately Shad Khan, is the hubris. When you're asking for nearly half a billion dollars in public money when accounting for interest, from a small market, during a pandemic, when a lot of people are suffering and the city has a lot of other needs, at least have the common decency to show up for the meeting and act humble and appreciative.

Pleases and thank yous goes a long way in a city like Jacksonville, and never once did anyone on the Jags' side acknowledge the magnitude of the ask, show appreciation for the sacrifices it would entail, or transparently discuss the true purpose of the project (e.g. to allow the Jags to boost local revenue and stay competitive with other NFL cities through rent collection, parking, hotel room nights, etc).

We just got the silly platitudes about urban pioneering, downtown game changing, and the immeasurable civic pride that will come from seeing cranes in the air during the pandemic (disregarding the fact that construction might not even begin for years).

Cordish didn't do themselves any favors in the end either with their rigidity and unwillingness to disclose important details. If I had to pinpoint a specific point where the tide turned for City Council, it might have been the moment that Zed Smith flatly refused to share any details from the project's pro forma.

Meanwhile, back to Curry, throughout this entire process, you've got the mayor actively sabotaging goodwill toward his own deal.

If I'm the Jags, I'm furious with Curry. Threatening the City Council (bonus points for trying to expose infidelity and start a fist fight with the member who turned out to be swing vote). Putting words into the franchise's mouth about relocating if Lot J isn't passed. Trying to rush through the deal before the holidays (which I'm guessing is because he knew the JEA report was going to drop soon after New Year's).

One of Khan's most infamous comments alluded to Jacksonville's lack of "mojo."

I think the city, led by select Council members, the local press (particularly the T-U), and a newly engaged citizenry, showed an incredible amount of mojo in telling Curry to fuck off with this particular deal.

Almost every City Council member who voted no spoke openly about wanting to see Lot J move forward eventually, just not under these hostage-like terms.

I respect the fact that the city has the self-confidence and pride to not roll over for a bum deal for Curry out of fear of losing the Jags.

Silver lining here is that the next ask from the Jags, likely a portion of the Shipyards, is probably going to land close enough to stadium negotiations that we'll be able to do what we should have done from the beginning - package the project up with the stadium ask, put it on the ballot, and let the public decide one way or another whether it's worth dropping $XXX million to keep the Jags in town for another few decades.

Huge disgrace for the Curry administration, big win for the public, and you've got to think that the Jags are smart enough to know that this was ultimately a vote of no confidence in Curry and his practices and a pass on a unfavorable deal, rather than an active vote against the Jags and their future in Jacksonville.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2021, 12:21:21 PM by Ken_FSU »

jaxlongtimer

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Re: Khan, Jaguars expect Lot J development to begin early 2020
« Reply #829 on: January 13, 2021, 12:19:49 PM »
^Ken, agree fully with your great analysis.  Curry brings a wrecking ball to everything he touches.  Would hate to be his business partner.

Quote
From a business perspective, I can appreciate the Jaguars organization using their resources to get the best deal. They brought all of the celebrity firepower to bear. They used their philanthropy to persuade a block of councilmembers. They used their relationships with officials. That's good business for them, but the city government with some notable exceptions failed to advocate for the constituents. Councilman Boylan even acknowledged that he was going to vote against the will of his constituents.

As Nate Monore noted on Twitter, the Jag's left out the most crucial "celebrity" of all - Shad Khan.  He did not show up at a public hearing once in this process sending a subtle message to the public this wasn't an essential deal for him or that he was willing to stick his neck out for it.  Clearly, he privately cajoled Council members but that just played into the hands of those saying this was in for a "fix" behind closed doors.  Like the entire process, Khan was not transparent himself.

marcuscnelson

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Re: Khan, Jaguars expect Lot J development to begin early 2020
« Reply #830 on: January 13, 2021, 02:02:49 PM »
So what does Lenny do now?  What is his priority?  Put it on autopilot and run out his term?  Does he work and concentrate on quality of life/quality of downtown investment?  Does he chase down the next Iguana proposal?  Does he find a way to keep the Jags here (all in number . . . Stadium and development)?  It does not appear Lenny can walk and chew gum.

Because Curry is NOT a public servant by any definition, but is a political operative/hack, he will do what such people do. He will seek revenge.

Just pointed this out in another thread. Curry didn't become Mayor by accident. He formed a powerful coalition of donors and influencers as state GOP chair. That weaponry is almost certainly going to be turned on whoever it can come the next election.

It's just so mind-numbingly depressing how many victims are left in the wake of this debacle.

The Landing. The Hart Bridge Ramps. Welcome to Rockville. Jacobs and the other firms who put in good-faith proposals for the convention center RFP. The Bay Street Innovation Corridor. The MOSH. The USS Orleck. The Eastside. The Jumbo Shrimp. RISE with their Doro project. Officials from UF and Georgia who have been negotiating an extension of the FL/GA game with promises of a new entertainment complex. Even JEA, because a lot of very good, honest people wasted a lot of time vetting a headquarters proposal based on what we now know to be grossly unrealistic construction schedule (<2 years) for a Lot J parcel that the Jags didn't even have the right to develop at the time.

All negatively effected, driven off, destroyed, let down, had their time and resources wasted, or set up to fail because Curry wrote a check in secret that City Council was asked to cash with a gun to their heads.

It's ridiculous how much money we've wasted because of Curry and friends' secret agenda. I really do shudder at what would have happened if they had actually managed to sell of JEA, and given that gang such a big pot of money.

Quote
Lot J was the city's to lose. We had the capital in Shad Khan. We had the developer in Cordish. And we had a good project that would have improved quality of life in Jacksonville and boosted local revenues for the Jags.

All Curry needed to do was land the plane with as transparent and fair of a deal for taxpayers as you're going to get from the NFL racket.

I honestly think a one-third split between all three parties (the City, Jags, and Cordish) put through the proper channels sails through the DIA and is approved by City Council 19-0.

As I've said before, I remember a bunch of us here being pretty okay with Lot J several months ago when it looked like a three-way split of $150 million each. That number managing to rise to $240 million for the city, then $390 million including interest as we started to realize the project was way smaller than the numbers should have indicated was a big part of what scuttled the whole thing.

Quote
Cordish didn't do themselves any favors in the end either with their rigidity and unwillingness to disclose important details. If I had to pinpoint a specific point where the tide turned for City Council, it might have been the moment that Zed Smith flatly refused to share any details from the project's pro forma.

I really thought that seemed out of character for them as a company. I wonder if that was really them speaking, or the Jags insisting they needed to shut up, show nothing, and take their cut or something.

With this deal sunk, and the Jags apparently just giving up and going back to the Shipyards instead of trying to actually make this work, I wonder if it'd be too out there for the city to offer Cordish Lots M, N, and P for at least a Live! arena and Loews hotel as Ennis has suggested. Hopefully with quite a bit fewer incentives this time.

Quote
If I'm the Jags, I'm furious with Curry. Threatening the City Council (bonus points for trying to expose infidelity and start a fist fight with the member who turned out to be swing vote). Putting words into the franchise's mouth about relocating if Lot J isn't passed. Trying to rush through the deal before the holidays (which I'm guessing is because he knew the JEA report was going to drop soon after New Year's).

Seriously, this guy only seems to have one strategy of accomplishing anything, and it's quickly becoming clear that it's no longer working and is going to land him in jail if he doesn't try something different.

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I respect the fact that the city has the self-confidence and pride to not roll over for a bum deal for Curry out of fear of losing the Jags.

Not if you're sports radio Twitter, apparently. Those guys are big mad. As I've said here and elsewhere though, this is a chance to offer alternatives that are both cost-effective and… actually effective. I don't think moving the jail is happening without BJP 2.0, but we certainly can do things that have been mentioned here like get the Laura Street Trio off the ground, get ready for adaptive reuse of JEA's headquarters, quickly get Amtrak back downtown, and focus some TOD around the Skyway. Even bigger things like adding an exhibition hall to the Hyatt should be doable.

Quote
Silver lining here is that the next ask from the Jags, likely a portion of the Shipyards, is probably going to land close enough to stadium negotiations that we'll be able to do what we should have done from the beginning - package the project up with the stadium ask, put it on the ballot, and let the public decide one way or another whether it's worth dropping $XXX million to keep the Jags in town for another few decades.

Huge disgrace for the Curry administration, big win for the public, and you've got to think that the Jags are smart enough to know that this was ultimately a vote of no confidence in Curry and his practices and a pass on a unfavorable deal, rather than an active vote against the Jags and their future in Jacksonville.

Hear, hear! 100%.
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landfall

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Re: Khan, Jaguars expect Lot J development to begin early 2020
« Reply #831 on: January 13, 2021, 02:45:30 PM »
I only expect their demands to double down when it comes to stadium renovations and future requests if anything. It'll all be part of their plan to get out when they don't get what they want.

Theres no way on earth I see them tucking their tail between their legs and continuing to plod along.

Wacca Pilatka

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Re: Khan, Jaguars expect Lot J development to begin early 2020
« Reply #832 on: January 13, 2021, 03:00:30 PM »

As I've said here and elsewhere though, this is a chance to offer alternatives that are both cost-effective and… actually effective. I don't think moving the jail is happening without BJP 2.0, but we certainly can do things that have been mentioned here like get the Laura Street Trio off the ground, get ready for adaptive reuse of JEA's headquarters, quickly get Amtrak back downtown, and focus some TOD around the Skyway.


Forgive my confusion, but is the suggestion here that these things and Lot J are mutually exclusive?  That, e.g., the Trio wouldn't happen unless Lot J failed?
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marcuscnelson

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Re: Khan, Jaguars expect Lot J development to begin early 2020
« Reply #833 on: January 13, 2021, 03:31:59 PM »
^ Not at all. What I'm referring to there is that for whatever reason, the city seems to have a bad track record of walking and chewing gum at the same time. Spending the political capital on Lot J takes attention away from the many other projects they could be putting their weight behind instead, that would improve things quicker.

The Trio is likely to happen eventually, with or without Lot J, but with Lot J gone the Trio can now be a focus that council members and others put effort into getting done as quickly as possible. If the city put the amount of dogged determination that Curry and others had for Lot J into stuff like the Trio, or into getting Amtrak back downtown, or sitting Hyatt and Spandrel down to hash out a deal on an exhibition hall, it is much more likely that we would see genuine progress compared to far-flung projects like Lot J.
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MusicMan

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Re: Khan, Jaguars expect Lot J development to begin early 2020
« Reply #834 on: January 13, 2021, 03:50:40 PM »
I appreciate all the insightful analysis on this by many of the posters. It's damn complicated. I am happy about the results. Had this gone forward I think everything else that's needed or been promised (downtown)would have never come to fruition. This could be a great downtown if COJ really wanted that. The fact that Khan was not there had to be a factor, he shot himself in the foot. I'm betting his pride will never let him admit that.

JaxAvondale

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Re: Khan, Jaguars expect Lot J development to begin early 2020
« Reply #835 on: January 13, 2021, 05:34:31 PM »
I appreciate all the insightful analysis on this by many of the posters. It's damn complicated. I am happy about the results. Had this gone forward I think everything else that's needed or been promised (downtown)would have never come to fruition. This could be a great downtown if COJ really wanted that. The fact that Khan was not there had to be a factor, he shot himself in the foot. I'm betting his pride will never let him admit that.

He is also being mum on the hiring of a head coach. So, I don’t know why anybody expected him to be in attendance based off what is going on with the football side.

thelakelander

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Re: Khan, Jaguars expect Lot J development to begin early 2020
« Reply #836 on: January 13, 2021, 05:37:43 PM »
With this deal sunk, and the Jags apparently just giving up and going back to the Shipyards instead of trying to actually make this work, I wonder if it'd be too out there for the city to offer Cordish Lots M, N, and P for at least a Live! arena and Loews hotel as Ennis has suggested. Hopefully with quite a bit fewer incentives this time.

I don't read them saying Lot J is dead as them giving up. At the end of the day, Lot J was a small hotel, some retail/entertainment and 400 apartment units. Not something game changing. I expect, if truly viable, these will all end up being included as uses in their Shipyards proposal.
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jaxlongtimer

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Re: Khan, Jaguars expect Lot J development to begin early 2020
« Reply #837 on: January 14, 2021, 12:14:42 PM »
Several postmortem comments:

If Khan asks for $151 million from the City for the Four Seasons, etc. at Metro Park (assuming the National Park Service caves), I think there could again be push back on the dollar amount.  That seems disproportionate, once again, to what the project might entail.  We shall see.

I don't think, in the end, Khan was willing to go to the mat for Lot J given he never appeared in public to make his case.  I think there are a few reasons, which no one would likely ever admit to, for this:

1.  Given the initial controversy, he saw it could be a potential "third rail"to his local image  if he was too front and center with the public.  Basically, he hedged his bets and let Lamping and Harden wear the "black hats."  Once the train left the station, he couldn't strand Curry and his team with backing out so he let them fight the "good" fight.  The more "graceful" way to assure an out was to refuse to compromise.  If it won, he got a windfall.  If it lost, he could walk away from what could have been an anchor around his interests for years to come.

2.  Khan isn't stupid.  I believe he may have had some second thoughts about the wisdom and financial viability of this project as it moved forward.  Some of this can be seen in the decision to downsize it.  That shows they didn't have a good handle at the beginning on the financial sustainability of the concept.  It also may be why they insisted on the City contributing so much.  It wasn't for the construction, it was for reserves to draw upon for years to save face while it failed to be profitable in the hopes that it could be turned around before the reserves ran out.  I think that's why they may have refused to share their proformas and other financial details.  Regardless, I sense some relief from his team that Lot J got defeated.  This is evidenced by their instant declaration that Lot J is dead and they have no interest in further pursuing it.  Good riddance.

3.  Khan is also savvy enough to stay focused on his priorities. Seeing the public sentiment foment against Lot J, at some point, he needed to weigh Lot J against his ultimate ask for the stadium.  The latter is far more important.  It wasn't worth risking the stadium for Lot J.  At some point, you decide to just let the chips fall where they may on Lot J but don't lose sleep over its outcome.

4.  For the above reasons, Khan has slipped out of a poorly conceived project and a public relations disaster that could have simmered for years if Lot J became the next Landing.  Moving on to Treveor Lawrence and Urban Meyer will provide him with a welcome distraction to offer Jacksonville citizens in the hopes their memories of Lot J will fade fast and he can rebuild his and the Jags image with the public in time for his big ask on the stadium improvements/rebuild.

5.  The real losers in this are Curry and the Council members who stuck their necks out to support Lot J.  They will be hung out to dry, left spinning in the wind.  Deservedly so for not sticking up for the citizens who they are supposed to represent.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2021, 03:04:20 PM by jaxlongtimer »

Florida Power And Light

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Re: Khan, Jaguars expect Lot J development to begin early 2020
« Reply #838 on: January 14, 2021, 09:06:36 PM »
Go Jags!!!!!..... Yea, just Leave Us Alone. Go Away.
End of an Era.
Onward!!

Lot J  No Problem
« Last Edit: January 14, 2021, 09:08:51 PM by Florida Power And Light »

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Re: Khan, Jaguars expect Lot J development to begin early 2020
« Reply #839 on: January 15, 2021, 09:42:16 PM »
Don't tell me that this COULD mean that Khan could either sell the team and leave, or pull chocks and relocate the team to another city (Orlando?)...Florida jaguars?
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