Author Topic: What are YOUR favorite memories of The Landing?  (Read 3493 times)

vicupstate

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Re: What are YOUR favorite memories of The Landing?
« Reply #30 on: November 08, 2019, 03:10:21 PM »
^^ You have to wonder if the promised parking had been provided from the start, how would things have happened differently.
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Tacachale

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Re: What are YOUR favorite memories of The Landing?
« Reply #31 on: November 08, 2019, 03:46:42 PM »
^^ You have to wonder if the promised parking had been provided from the start, how would things have happened differently.

My old man told me recently that both he and Ed Austin made several offers to build the garage for the Landing per the agreement, and Rouse turned them down. As it wasn't immediately adjacent (it would have been up the street a bit, a la the Parador garage) Rouse didn't feel it would have enough of an impact to be worth the investment. And so the city focused on other things around the Landing like programming and the Northbank Riverwalk.

I still hold that the only thing wrong with the Landing is that it never got updated over 32 years to get ready for changes in retail and what the downtown market could realistically support. The architecture, parking issues, etc. may have been pieces of the puzzle, but the real clincher is it didn't adapt with the times.
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Wacca Pilatka

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Re: What are YOUR favorite memories of The Landing?
« Reply #32 on: November 08, 2019, 04:06:18 PM »
^ Does that mean Rouse would have only settled for a garage on the spot where the surface lot is presently?
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Tacachale

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Re: What are YOUR favorite memories of The Landing?
« Reply #33 on: November 08, 2019, 04:33:22 PM »
^ Does that mean Rouse would have only settled for a garage on the spot where the surface lot is presently?

I don't know.
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thelakelander

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Re: What are YOUR favorite memories of The Landing?
« Reply #34 on: November 08, 2019, 07:04:50 PM »
Rouse's position on not wanting a garage 2 to 3 dark blocks away makes sense. I can't think of one festival marketplace they built in a smaller city like Jax that did not have adjacent dedicated parking. IMO, it's surprising that the Landing was built without the parking component already worked into the original plan.
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Non-RedNeck Westsider

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Re: What are YOUR favorite memories of The Landing?
« Reply #35 on: November 08, 2019, 08:36:19 PM »
^^ You have to wonder if the promised parking had been provided from the start, how would things have happened differently.

My old man told me recently that both he and Ed Austin made several offers to build the garage for the Landing per the agreement, and Rouse turned them down. As it wasn't immediately adjacent (it would have been up the street a bit, a la the Parador garage) Rouse didn't feel it would have enough of an impact to be worth the investment. And so the city focused on other things around the Landing like programming and the Northbank Riverwalk.

I still hold that the only thing wrong with the Landing is that it never got updated over 32 years to get ready for changes in retail and what the downtown market could realistically support. The architecture, parking issues, etc. may have been pieces of the puzzle, but the real clincher is it didn't adapt with the times.

So when the Adam's Mark was building their garage, couldn't there have been an agreement to kick in some additional $$$ to add a few floors of parking?

I mean, I don't know what the magic number would be for parking, but after your comment, it makes me wonder if it was even discussed.
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Steve

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Re: What are YOUR favorite memories of The Landing?
« Reply #36 on: November 08, 2019, 10:19:16 PM »
^^ You have to wonder if the promised parking had been provided from the start, how would things have happened differently.

My old man told me recently that both he and Ed Austin made several offers to build the garage for the Landing per the agreement, and Rouse turned them down. As it wasn't immediately adjacent (it would have been up the street a bit, a la the Parador garage) Rouse didn't feel it would have enough of an impact to be worth the investment. And so the city focused on other things around the Landing like programming and the Northbank Riverwalk.

I still hold that the only thing wrong with the Landing is that it never got updated over 32 years to get ready for changes in retail and what the downtown market could realistically support. The architecture, parking issues, etc. may have been pieces of the puzzle, but the real clincher is it didn't adapt with the times.

So when the Adam's Mark was building their garage, couldn't there have been an agreement to kick in some additional $$$ to add a few floors of parking?

I mean, I don't know what the magic number would be for parking, but after your comment, it makes me wonder if it was even discussed.


Adam’s Mark didn’t build their garage. That’s the former Daniel building.

Adam White

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Re: What are YOUR favorite memories of The Landing?
« Reply #37 on: November 09, 2019, 03:16:20 AM »

I still hold that the only thing wrong with the Landing is that it never got updated over 32 years to get ready for changes in retail and what the downtown market could realistically support. The architecture, parking issues, etc. may have been pieces of the puzzle, but the real clincher is it didn't adapt with the times.

That sounds pretty reasonable.

I think that, combined with the fact that it was essentially an isolated development with nothing around it, meant people wouldn't drive in from the suburbs to shop there when the novelty wore off.
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sandyshoes

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Re: What are YOUR favorite memories of The Landing?
« Reply #38 on: November 11, 2019, 09:44:16 AM »
Kerry, (re: Reply #27)...to try to come up with an answer for your 'what the hell happened' to The Landing by the time you arrived here in 2003 and found nothing resembling the memories shared in this thread, my own theory is that the arrival of the NFL could have started the ball rolling.  We were awarded the NFL franchise for the Jacksonville Jaguars in 1993, and I think for one, the crazy euphoria of having a real NFL team in our little Podunk hometown overrode everything else.  Plus the fact that we immediately started receiving warnings from other NFL towns that along with the NFL would come more crime, drugs, violence...and now look what we've got today.  It might have started way back then and this might have had a little to do with the Landing 'not keeping up' as another observer put it.  With the number of stores that have come and gone, though, I'm not sure I would call that not having kept up if they were trying to bring better and better merch in.  Just my theory.  But yeah, Kerry, it was an awesome place.  And I still don't know anyplace today where we're going to be able to get those million-dollar views of the river with the ambience, lights, events. 

vicupstate

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Re: What are YOUR favorite memories of The Landing?
« Reply #39 on: November 11, 2019, 11:33:24 AM »
You guys are overthinking it. The Landing never turned a profit. The business model just doesn't work, except where there is a large presence of tourists and office workers.  Festival Marketplaces work in Miami and Boston and Baltimore. JAX and all the second tier cities that got a Rouse F.M. never made it.   
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thelakelander

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Re: What are YOUR favorite memories of The Landing?
« Reply #40 on: November 11, 2019, 11:38:20 AM »

I still hold that the only thing wrong with the Landing is that it never got updated over 32 years to get ready for changes in retail and what the downtown market could realistically support. The architecture, parking issues, etc. may have been pieces of the puzzle, but the real clincher is it didn't adapt with the times.

That sounds pretty reasonable.

I think that, combined with the fact that it was essentially an isolated development with nothing around it, meant people wouldn't drive in from the suburbs to shop there when the novelty wore off.
It's more than this. Rouse was sold a bill of goods. Based off the archived material in the JPL special collections department,  they came because they got a ton of incentives and was sold that DT Jax would be the next Baltimore Inner Harbor. Without these things, it never would have been built because the market at the time wasn't large enough to support the concept. The other stuff never materialized and many of the initital retailers were already out by 1995.
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thelakelander

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Re: What are YOUR favorite memories of The Landing?
« Reply #41 on: November 11, 2019, 11:41:13 AM »
You guys are overthinking it. The Landing never turned a profit. The business model just doesn't work, except where there is a large presence of tourists and office workers.  Festival Marketplaces work in Miami and Boston and Baltimore. JAX and all the second tier cities that got a Rouse F.M. never made it.   
When you think about it, the Landing fared well despite 30 years of continuous obstacles.  It would be around right now if the remaining profitable businesses weren't kicked out by COJ. You can't say that about similar centers in Flint, Toledo, Norfolk, Richmond, Battle Creek, etc. They failed quick and were repurposed years ago
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vicupstate

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Re: What are YOUR favorite memories of The Landing?
« Reply #42 on: November 11, 2019, 12:56:58 PM »
It's certainly true that the Landing fared better than most, but it also was propped up not only with the incentives but also by never having to pay rent or property taxes on the land.   
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thelakelander

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Re: What are YOUR favorite memories of The Landing?
« Reply #43 on: November 11, 2019, 01:29:21 PM »
Of course. Many of the other failed festival marketplaces had similar deals but they didn't matter because their retail deaths were swift. In Flint, the Water Street Pavilion opened in 1985 and closed for good in 1990. Portside opened in DT Toledo in 1984 and closed in 1990. If it had taken the path of Rouse's other festival marketplaces in smaller cities, the Landing should have shut down by 1993 or so, a full decade before Sleiman purchased it.
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Kerry

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Re: What are YOUR favorite memories of The Landing?
« Reply #44 on: November 11, 2019, 02:19:06 PM »
Kerry, (re: Reply #27)...to try to come up with an answer for your 'what the hell happened' to The Landing by the time you arrived here in 2003 and found nothing resembling the memories shared in this thread, my own theory is that the arrival of the NFL could have started the ball rolling.  We were awarded the NFL franchise for the Jacksonville Jaguars in 1993, and I think for one, the crazy euphoria of having a real NFL team in our little Podunk hometown overrode everything else.  Plus the fact that we immediately started receiving warnings from other NFL towns that along with the NFL would come more crime, drugs, violence...and now look what we've got today.  It might have started way back then and this might have had a little to do with the Landing 'not keeping up' as another observer put it.  With the number of stores that have come and gone, though, I'm not sure I would call that not having kept up if they were trying to bring better and better merch in.  Just my theory.  But yeah, Kerry, it was an awesome place.  And I still don't know anyplace today where we're going to be able to get those million-dollar views of the river with the ambience, lights, events.

I tend to agree with you.
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