Author Topic: Riverside & San Marco Parking Plan Draws Opposition  (Read 10392 times)

Kerry

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Re: Riverside & San Marco Parking Plan Draws Opposition
« Reply #30 on: October 31, 2019, 08:16:07 AM »
Business will actually improve, but some people would vote against tomorrow if they thought it might be different than today.  Nearly every city in America has paid parking in commercial districts but for some reason Jax is an anomaly.  If a business relies on a customer base that can't afford $1 hour to park their private property on public land then they should go out of business and make room for someone else.

Alas, if done correctly the price will be set so that 85% of parking will be used, thus ensuring that some amount of parking will always be available.  Also, a huge percentage of the customer base walks there or rides their bike.  Revenue from parking should go to improving sidewalks and bike routes (not profit to a private company).
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thelakelander

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Re: Riverside & San Marco Parking Plan Draws Opposition
« Reply #31 on: October 31, 2019, 08:33:26 AM »
Business will actually improve, but some people would vote against tomorrow if they thought it might be different than today.  Nearly every city in America has paid parking in commercial districts but for some reason Jax is an anomaly.  If a business relies on a customer base that can't afford $1 hour to park their private property on public land then they should go out of business and make room for someone else.

Other than personal opinion, what are your sources that business will actually improve?
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Captain Zissou

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Re: Riverside & San Marco Parking Plan Draws Opposition
« Reply #32 on: October 31, 2019, 09:28:29 AM »
Lake, he already answered your question.  He saw it on a youtube video.....

Also, a huge percentage of the customer base walks there or rides their bike.  Revenue from parking should go to improving sidewalks and bike routes (not profit to a private company).

Do you consider 5-10% to be a huge percentage?  I don't.  San Marco is an affluent residential area, but every business would close if the bulk of their customers came from within walking distance.  Residents of St Nicholas, Miramar, the Southbank, the Northbank, and Lakewood all rely on the square for dining and entertainment because it has things that our neighborhoods don't offer.  Likely none of us walk there, but a handful may ride their bike. I'm in the square 2-3 nights a week every week and I am always able to find a space, but sometimes after a lap or two.

The new pay to park policies at the beach have been an adjustment, but I'm happy to do it for the 1 or 2 days a month that i'm out there.  There they have a policy where if you are a local resident, you can register your license plate with them and you are exempt from paying.  Maybe residents of 32207 could get an exemption since that is our neighborhood commercial center. This won't happen if it's a private company, but it's nice to dream.

CityLife

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Re: Riverside & San Marco Parking Plan Draws Opposition
« Reply #33 on: October 31, 2019, 09:57:21 AM »
Be careful with parking privatization especially as it comes to San Marco and Riverside. As it now comes down to money and nothing but money, the managing company can get very cut throat without regards to the citizens or the merchants. I have had this experience at Atlantic Beach Town Center. My vehicle got towed over a non issue (long story). Neptune Beach mayor AGREED with me and tried to get me a refund, BUT had no control as it is privately operated. Even the merchants are not happy with the situation, BUT can do nothing about it. So if you want to keep your customers and merchants happy - BEWARE.

The NB beach mayor is simply 1 of 5 voting members of the City Council. She wouldn't have the authority to waive a parking ticket fee even if the program was publicly run, nor should she have that authority.

As I said in a previous post, the paid parking program was initiated by the Beaches Town Center agency and many of the merchants lobbied for it, including the two people with the largest financial stake in BTC businesses. Trust me I would know....

It's not an apples to apples comparison to R/A and San Marco, since part of the genesis of the problem was beach goers parking in public spots all day, thereby leaving no parking for business patrons. But as I said previously, the Merchants Association was heavily involved, and despite what Kerry is saying, the businesses in R/A and San Marco need to be heavily involved. Every community is unique and solutions need to be tailored to meet the needs of the community.

fieldafm

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Re: Riverside & San Marco Parking Plan Draws Opposition
« Reply #34 on: October 31, 2019, 10:46:57 AM »
Nearly every city in America has paid parking in commercial districts but for some reason Jax is an anomaly. 

You mean, like the current Kerry flavor of the day.... Greeneville, SC?  Downtown, West Greeneville, etc are all two hour free parking.... just like Riverside and San Marco.

There is already a mechanism to effect consumer parking behavior in Riverside and San Marco (just like the alleged non-sprawling utopian you claim Greeneville to be after spending a few days there), it simply isn't enforced. Dramatically changing that policy would likely be foolish without first better utilizing existing tools to affect supply/demand. It's even more foolish to not include the people who live, work and own a business in those neighborhoods when considering such a dramatic, wholesale change to public parking and/or privatizing public parking.


Also, a huge percentage of the customer base walks there or rides their bike.

Considering the vast majority of restaurant sales are cashless, spending data reported by credit card companies would extrapolate a much different picture. Transaction data in Riverside, San Marco and Brooklyn are not primarily coming from people living in the 32205 or 32207 zip codes (if you assume that a person's billing address is the same as their personal residence).  I don't think it would be reasonable to assume that a 'huge percentage of the customer base' is walking or biking 45 minutes or more to buy bags of groceries at Grassroots, or a steak dinner at Matthews.


Alas, if done correctly the price will be set so that 85% of parking will be used, thus ensuring that some amount of parking will always be available.

That's nice that you can read an article by Donald Shoup, and somehow take that is a hard/fast rule without examining the context.
Curious, since your theory sounds well researched, how many public and private spaces exist in Riverside and San Marco now. How many transactions do these businesses handle per day? What is the parking turnover in both public and private spaces in Riverside and San Marco?

If a business relies on a customer base that can't afford $1 hour to park their private property on public land then they should go out of business and make room for someone else.

You seem to be assuming that consumers have no choice.  In reality, they do have a choice. Do you know how many people drive downtown (where parking is not free) from a nearby neighborhood (where parking is free) to eat lunch?  Based on parking garage data... very little.

Based on parking garage data that found a high number of people leaving downtown for lunch, we were able to open a business downtown that captured those people who otherwise chose to leave downtown during those hours.

There are theories, and then there is using data to form opinions.  Have fun with your theories.
« Last Edit: October 31, 2019, 11:43:34 AM by fieldafm »

fieldafm

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Re: Riverside & San Marco Parking Plan Draws Opposition
« Reply #35 on: October 31, 2019, 10:56:37 AM »
  There they have a policy where if you are a local resident, you can register your license plate with them and you are exempt from paying.  Maybe residents of 32207 could get an exemption since that is our neighborhood commercial center. This won't happen if it's a private company, but it's nice to dream.

There are 35 spaces in a City-owned lot in Neptune Beach that are free on a first-come, first-served basis for registered residents. On the Atlantic Beach side, registered residents are given a 50% discount.

It should be noted that, the first 30 minutes of on-street parking at BTC is free. That would average out to (slightly) less than the proposed $2/hour rates in the Dane Grey (and other investors who already make money off taxpayer subsidies) privatization proposal.

I think there is a case that can be made to increase meter rates in DT Jax to $2/hour. That money could easily pay for two-waying at least 4 streets downtown.

In the core of Downtown, parking meter utilization rates are well above 85%... meaning that supply/demand is likely not at an equilibrium point. On the outskirts of Downtown, meters are rarely used (and even more rarely enforced). The fact that these meters are still of the coin-operated variety, reflects that reality. A distribution problem exists Downtown, just as much as it exists in Riverside and San Marco. There's also no uniformity in price between private garages (which are full of mostly monthly parking) and public parking facilities.. another supply/demand optimization opportunity. This will be further exasperated when Vystar completes their move Downtown.

The picture is much more complicated in Riverside and San Marco, where there are many private parking lots that are vastly underutilized.
« Last Edit: October 31, 2019, 11:27:37 AM by fieldafm »

Tacachale

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Re: Riverside & San Marco Parking Plan Draws Opposition
« Reply #36 on: October 31, 2019, 11:14:20 AM »
Lake, he already answered your question.  He saw it on a youtube video.....

Also, a huge percentage of the customer base walks there or rides their bike.  Revenue from parking should go to improving sidewalks and bike routes (not profit to a private company).

Do you consider 5-10% to be a huge percentage?  I don't.  San Marco is an affluent residential area, but every business would close if the bulk of their customers came from within walking distance.  Residents of St Nicholas, Miramar, the Southbank, the Northbank, and Lakewood all rely on the square for dining and entertainment because it has things that our neighborhoods don't offer.  Likely none of us walk there, but a handful may ride their bike. I'm in the square 2-3 nights a week every week and I am always able to find a space, but sometimes after a lap or two.

The new pay to park policies at the beach have been an adjustment, but I'm happy to do it for the 1 or 2 days a month that i'm out there.  There they have a policy where if you are a local resident, you can register your license plate with them and you are exempt from paying.  Maybe residents of 32207 could get an exemption since that is our neighborhood commercial center. This won't happen if it's a private company, but it's nice to dream.

My wife and I are in walking distance of San Marco Square and Hendricks and make a point of walking, but our next door neighbor makes an equal point of driving his truck there exclusively, and he probably goes out as much or more as we do. That said, I believe there was free resident parking as part of the plan. But like you say, probably a significant chunk of the customer base aren't San Marco residents.
Do you believe that when the blue jay or another bird sings and the body is trembling, that is a signal that people are coming or something important is about to happen?

Kerry

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Re: Riverside & San Marco Parking Plan Draws Opposition
« Reply #37 on: October 31, 2019, 01:20:46 PM »
If free parking is 100% full and it switched to paid parking which was also 100% full - tell me how business is hurt.

Since it was brought up - downtown Greenville has 8000 city owned parking spaces of which 700 are currently free for some portion of the day or day of the week.  My first time there I happen to find an open space right where I was going.  Every time since then finding a free space was an impossible task so I just paid $6 for 24 hours in a city-owned garage.
« Last Edit: October 31, 2019, 01:27:46 PM by Kerry »
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fieldafm

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Re: Riverside & San Marco Parking Plan Draws Opposition
« Reply #38 on: October 31, 2019, 02:02:31 PM »
If free parking is 100% full and it switched to paid parking which was also 100% full - tell me how business is hurt.


100% full? Interesting.

So how many public and private parking spaces exist within a 10 minute walkshed of Five Points and San Marco? What is the occupancy of on-street and off-street parking broken down by the hours of the day? What is the turnover and duration of on-street spaces during lunch, dinner and late night hours in these areas?

jaxjags

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Re: Riverside & San Marco Parking Plan Draws Opposition
« Reply #39 on: October 31, 2019, 02:09:26 PM »
Be careful with parking privatization especially as it comes to San Marco and Riverside. As it now comes down to money and nothing but money, the managing company can get very cut throat without regards to the citizens or the merchants. I have had this experience at Atlantic Beach Town Center. My vehicle got towed over a non issue (long story). Neptune Beach mayor AGREED with me and tried to get me a refund, BUT had no control as it is privately operated. Even the merchants are not happy with the situation, BUT can do nothing about it. So if you want to keep your customers and merchants happy - BEWARE.

The NB beach mayor is simply 1 of 5 voting members of the City Council. She wouldn't have the authority to waive a parking ticket fee even if the program was publicly run, nor should she have that authority.

As I said in a previous post, the paid parking program was initiated by the Beaches Town Center agency and many of the merchants lobbied for it, including the two people with the largest financial stake in BTC businesses. Trust me I would know....

It's not an apples to apples comparison to R/A and San Marco, since part of the genesis of the problem was beach goers parking in public spots all day, thereby leaving no parking for business patrons. But as I said previously, the Merchants Association was heavily involved, and despite what Kerry is saying, the businesses in R/A and San Marco need to be heavily involved. Every community is unique and solutions need to be tailored to meet the needs of the community.

I understand what you are saying, but my point is that if you privatize the parking both the government and the citizens lose any control of what may occur, good or bad. Also a 30 year contract better have some mutual ability to break the contract early. If is a private company remember it is more about the money. If not, why would they do it.

I just strongly suggest the business community thoroughly investigate what procedures, rules, enforcement, appeals policies, ect. will be. Once in place it will be too late too change.

Also, valet parking should not be allowed to consume what previously was public parking. This may help the restaurants, but can hinder other businesses.

vicupstate

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Re: Riverside & San Marco Parking Plan Draws Opposition
« Reply #40 on: October 31, 2019, 02:17:38 PM »
Greenville's DT parking:


On street parking is free 24/7/365. There are no meters. Each space is timed. Most are 2 hours but a few are 15, 30 or 60 minutes. Banks for instance generally have two 15 minute spaces and a 30 minute space at their front door.  All time limits only apply M-F from 9-6. The time limits ARE enforced and you will get a ticket if you exceed the limit.  It isn't publicized but because of the time it takes to monitor a circuit, you will generally get an extra 5-10 minutes before a ticket is actually issued.

During evenings and weekends, on street parking is not time limited or policed. Two garages are also free/unlimited unless there is a special event (festivals).

ALL spaces that are not leased monthly (which is the vast majority) in ANY garage are FREE for one hour 24/7/365, except during special events.  The second hour is $2. Each additional hour is $1, up to a maximum of $7. There is a free trolley that  the city operates too.

I have lived here 23 years and can count on my fingers the number of times I have paid to park. During business hours is actually the easiest time to find an on-street space. Weekends can be harder to find a space, but as long as you are willing to walk a modest distance, you can find one. Admittedly being a local helps as I know some of the less obvious places to find a space. I almost never park in a garage unless it will be free. 

The city controls the lion share of the parking throughout DT, and operates it as a break even proposition, not a revenue generator.           
   
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Kerry

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Re: Riverside & San Marco Parking Plan Draws Opposition
« Reply #41 on: October 31, 2019, 02:21:21 PM »
Vicupstate - are you aware of any local discussions about charging for on-street parking there?
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Peter Griffin

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Re: Riverside & San Marco Parking Plan Draws Opposition
« Reply #42 on: October 31, 2019, 02:29:00 PM »
Vicupstate - are you aware of any local discussions about charging for on-street parking there?

Are you?

Kerry

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Re: Riverside & San Marco Parking Plan Draws Opposition
« Reply #43 on: October 31, 2019, 02:29:55 PM »
Not sure where Uptown Greenville is in relation to downtown Greenville but found this.

https://wcti12.com/news/local/paid-parking-proposed-in-uptown-greenville

Quote
Aug 21, 2019 GREENVILLE, Pitt County — Visiting the uptown area of Greenville could soon cost more money.

The City of Greenville recently proposed a plan to replace its free street parking with paid parking.

The plan proposes charges $1.75 an hour for parking with the first hour being free.

On edit - this is Greenville, NC and not Greenville, SC
« Last Edit: October 31, 2019, 02:35:31 PM by Kerry »
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vicupstate

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Re: Riverside & San Marco Parking Plan Draws Opposition
« Reply #44 on: October 31, 2019, 03:31:27 PM »
Vicupstate - are you aware of any local discussions about charging for on-street parking there?

None currently. There was a study done about 5-8 years ago that recommended it and it went nowhere.  The mayor is very much against  charging for on street parking.       
« Last Edit: October 31, 2019, 03:59:04 PM by vicupstate »
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