Author Topic: The Ford on Bay  (Read 18639 times)

simms3

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Re: The Ford on Bay
« Reply #75 on: January 22, 2020, 08:26:06 PM »
Welcome back!

Thanks!  I sent you a direct message a while back when I first got to town, but I don't think you got it?  Wanted to get together for a coffee or lunch. :)
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thelakelander

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Re: The Ford on Bay
« Reply #76 on: January 22, 2020, 08:36:29 PM »
I must have missed it. Yes, let's catch up. Shoot me an email at edavis@moderncities.com
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simms3

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Re: The Ford on Bay
« Reply #77 on: January 23, 2020, 08:49:23 AM »
Sent.
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Steve

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Re: The Ford on Bay
« Reply #78 on: January 23, 2020, 09:14:34 AM »
Hmmm, after all the media puff pieces about a RFP drawing a ton of interest, all we got was two responses? That's underwhelming. Let's hope at least one of them is decent.

I wonder how we're marketing these RFPs. Perhaps that's the issue? Additionally, the developer requirements in the RFP likely pushed out anyone but larger developers.

Regardless of that, at least these two firms are pretty decent it appears. I know Related's projects pretty well. They're the master developer on Hudson Yards in NY which you can likely argue is the most complex urban development project in America at present. They could put a junior associate on this project compared to Hudson Yards. Looking at Spandrel, they seem to promote their adaptive reuse (don't tell Lenny Curry) but have built some nice things regardless.

The other issue - Jacksonville has done a poor job with RFPs in the past. Let's hope that at least one of these project proposals is decent and assuming so, let's make sure it gets off the ground.

CityLife

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Re: The Ford on Bay
« Reply #79 on: January 23, 2020, 09:47:09 AM »
Related is a good one for DT Jax. They’re one of the 5 firms I referenced in another thread that could help Rummel pull The District off.

Wouldn’t even bother looking at Hudson Yards though for an idea of what they would do in Jax. They are based in Miami and do a lot in South Florida. They are currently doing a $550 million redevelopment of City Place in downtown WPB. Doubt they do anything on that scale in Jax, but who knows. Will be interested to see what they have proposed...
« Last Edit: January 23, 2020, 09:49:11 AM by CityLife »

Steve

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Re: The Ford on Bay
« Reply #80 on: January 23, 2020, 10:18:13 AM »
Wouldn’t even bother looking at Hudson Yards though for an idea of what they would do in Jax.

Of course not. Hudson Yards is a $25B development and probably the most complex urban development in the US. My guess is what they proposed has at least two 0s removed from the price, if not more. My point was only that there's nothing Jacksonville has that they can't handle.

Except for some idiotic politics.

Ken_FSU

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Re: The Ford on Bay
« Reply #81 on: January 23, 2020, 10:39:39 AM »
I wonder how we're marketing these RFPs. Perhaps that's the issue? Additionally, the developer requirements in the RFP likely pushed out anyone but larger developers.

Lori Boyer is great for Jacksonville, and she's got some fantastic ideas for downtown Jacksonville. Love the zoning overhaul, love the restaurant districts and retail grants, love the ideas for the riverwalk. That said, there would have also been a lot of value in bringing in someone to head the DIA with national experience and a proven track record marketing a city to outside investors and revitalizing its downtown. As much as I like and respect her, a fresh perspective from outside of Jacksonville could have been nice.

Though her ascension coincided with a lot of other terrible decisions down at City Hall outside of her control, it does feel like downtown lost a lot of momentum after Aundra Wallace left the post.

As for the lack of responses, I can't help but wonder if at least part of it was caused by the city's actions over the last two years coming home to roost. We burnt multiple developers with the last courthouse/Annex RFP for the convention center, when the Jags brought the entire process to a screeching halt with their unsolicited bid at the Shipyards and Rimrock Devlin dropped an alternate, out-of-scope proposal for the Courthouse site. EIGHTEEN different groups lit an obscene amount of money on fire putting together thousand page proposals to acquire JEA, only to have the city pull out. The owner of the most comparable downtown property was publicly villified by the mayor and forced to sell his property. It's gotta look like a business-hostile clown show from the outside.

And speaking of Rimrock Devlin, interesting that when we want to build a convention center at the Courthouse site, they think a convention center belongs at the Shipyards and they offer to develop the Courthouse land as mixed use. But when we decide not to build a convention center at the Courthouse site, they don't put in a bid to redevelop the property.

For what it's worth, which admittedly isn't much in Jacksonville, the winner is required to be in full development within 120 days, with all elements under construction within two years. 


vicupstate

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Re: The Ford on Bay
« Reply #82 on: January 23, 2020, 11:10:57 AM »
Quote
For what it's worth, which admittedly isn't much in Jacksonville, the winner is required to be in full development within 120 days, with all elements under construction within two years.

That would be a good reason why only two parties responded. It will take more than 120 days to get all the approvals. Getting the whole thing built in two years is pretty ridiculous too considering the demand (or lack thereof) of many uses in DT currently. 
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Ken_FSU

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Re: The Ford on Bay
« Reply #83 on: January 23, 2020, 11:15:00 AM »
Quote
For what it's worth, which admittedly isn't much in Jacksonville, the winner is required to be in full development within 120 days, with all elements under construction within two years.

That would be a good reason why only two parties responded. It will take more than 120 days to get all the approvals. Getting the whole thing built in two years is pretty ridiculous too considering the demand (or lack thereof) of many uses in DT currently.

I think the intent is actually that the approvals process is underway within 120 days (of land transfer), and that construction is in full swing (not completed) within two years.

thelakelander

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Re: The Ford on Bay
« Reply #84 on: January 23, 2020, 11:20:33 AM »
I get Vic's point. You can't force a market into reality. If anything, such demands would likely drive down the level of density and quality of the responses. It's easier to get a stick frame Texas donut style apartment complex with a drive through Dunkin off the ground faster than a 12-story mixed-use multifamily project with structured parking like Vista Brooklyn.
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Steve

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Re: The Ford on Bay
« Reply #85 on: January 23, 2020, 11:31:45 AM »
Lori Boyer is great for Jacksonville, and she's got some fantastic ideas for downtown Jacksonville. Love the zoning overhaul, love the restaurant districts and retail grants, love the ideas for the riverwalk. That said, there would have also been a lot of value in bringing in someone to head the DIA with national experience and a proven track record marketing a city to outside investors and revitalizing its downtown. As much as I like and respect her, a fresh perspective from outside of Jacksonville could have been nice.

Here's my feeling: Think of a truly world class downtown as a $5B company. Think of Jacksonville's as a $10M company. If you're a $10M company you can have all of the aspirations to be a $5B company, but you need so much in terms of groundwork first. In other words, think of a position like a CIO. The person who can take the company from $10M to $250M isn't necessarily the same person that takes a company from $1B to $5B.

I see Boyer as the person that can take us from a "$10M company" downtown to somewhere between $250M and $1B....provided the rest of the leadership is there (i.e. the CEO). Do I see her taking downtown from being that "$1B company" downtown to a "$5b company" downtown. I do not.

Long story short I think she's the right person right now. Not necessarily 10 years from now.

Steve

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Re: The Ford on Bay
« Reply #86 on: January 23, 2020, 11:35:32 AM »
As for the lack of responses, I can't help but wonder if at least part of it was caused by the city's actions over the last two years coming home to roost. We burnt multiple developers with the last courthouse/Annex RFP for the convention center, when the Jags brought the entire process to a screeching halt with their unsolicited bid at the Shipyards and Rimrock Devlin dropped an alternate, out-of-scope proposal for the Courthouse site. EIGHTEEN different groups lit an obscene amount of money on fire putting together thousand page proposals to acquire JEA, only to have the city pull out. The owner of the most comparable downtown property was publicly villified by the mayor and forced to sell his property. It's gotta look like a business-hostile clown show from the outside.

And speaking of Rimrock Devlin, interesting that when we want to build a convention center at the Courthouse site, they think a convention center belongs at the Shipyards and they offer to develop the Courthouse land as mixed use. But when we decide not to build a convention center at the Courthouse site, they don't put in a bid to redevelop the property.

For what it's worth, which admittedly isn't much in Jacksonville, the winner is required to be in full development within 120 days, with all elements under construction within two years. 

Totally agree. That's exactly what I meant when I said "Jacksonville has done a poor job with RFPs in the past". We need to actually follow through to completion on one of these, or no one wants to play ball.

I do think the RFP was written (right or wrong) in a manner that excluded some participants. It seems like it was written so that only "big boys" can play. I see positives and negatives for this. You likely won't have an issue with funding this development, so certainly a plus.

120North

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Re: The Ford on Bay
« Reply #87 on: January 23, 2020, 12:06:59 PM »
As for the lack of responses, I can't help but wonder if at least part of it was caused by the city's actions over the last two years coming home to roost. We burnt multiple developers with the last courthouse/Annex RFP for the convention center, when the Jags brought the entire process to a screeching halt with their unsolicited bid at the Shipyards and Rimrock Devlin dropped an alternate, out-of-scope proposal for the Courthouse site. EIGHTEEN different groups lit an obscene amount of money on fire putting together thousand page proposals to acquire JEA, only to have the city pull out. The owner of the most comparable downtown property was publicly villified by the mayor and forced to sell his property. It's gotta look like a business-hostile clown show from the outside.

And speaking of Rimrock Devlin, interesting that when we want to build a convention center at the Courthouse site, they think a convention center belongs at the Shipyards and they offer to develop the Courthouse land as mixed use. But when we decide not to build a convention center at the Courthouse site, they don't put in a bid to redevelop the property.

For what it's worth, which admittedly isn't much in Jacksonville, the winner is required to be in full development within 120 days, with all elements under construction within two years. 

Totally agree. That's exactly what I meant when I said "Jacksonville has done a poor job with RFPs in the past". We need to actually follow through to completion on one of these, or no one wants to play ball.

I do think the RFP was written (right or wrong) in a manner that excluded some participants. It seems like it was written so that only "big boys" can play. I see positives and negatives for this. You likely won't have an issue with funding this development, so certainly a plus.

The "bid bond" likely scared some teams away.  The way the deal was structured pointed away from civic uses (Convention Center).

Steve

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Re: The Ford on Bay
« Reply #88 on: January 23, 2020, 12:43:11 PM »
As for the lack of responses, I can't help but wonder if at least part of it was caused by the city's actions over the last two years coming home to roost. We burnt multiple developers with the last courthouse/Annex RFP for the convention center, when the Jags brought the entire process to a screeching halt with their unsolicited bid at the Shipyards and Rimrock Devlin dropped an alternate, out-of-scope proposal for the Courthouse site. EIGHTEEN different groups lit an obscene amount of money on fire putting together thousand page proposals to acquire JEA, only to have the city pull out. The owner of the most comparable downtown property was publicly villified by the mayor and forced to sell his property. It's gotta look like a business-hostile clown show from the outside.

And speaking of Rimrock Devlin, interesting that when we want to build a convention center at the Courthouse site, they think a convention center belongs at the Shipyards and they offer to develop the Courthouse land as mixed use. But when we decide not to build a convention center at the Courthouse site, they don't put in a bid to redevelop the property.

For what it's worth, which admittedly isn't much in Jacksonville, the winner is required to be in full development within 120 days, with all elements under construction within two years. 

Totally agree. That's exactly what I meant when I said "Jacksonville has done a poor job with RFPs in the past". We need to actually follow through to completion on one of these, or no one wants to play ball.

I do think the RFP was written (right or wrong) in a manner that excluded some participants. It seems like it was written so that only "big boys" can play. I see positives and negatives for this. You likely won't have an issue with funding this development, so certainly a plus.

The "bid bond" likely scared some teams away.  The way the deal was structured pointed away from civic uses (Convention Center).

Maybe, but this shouldn’t be a hard site to develop. Heck, that’s why the city demolished the existing buildings. Plus, there’s really zero thought of any environmental issues, etc. with the site.

Now....that could also be a problem too. Heck, most of the high rises that have sold recently in downtown could not be rebuilt for the sale price.

acme54321

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Re: The Ford on Bay
« Reply #89 on: January 23, 2020, 01:58:17 PM »
Whatever the proposals her for the site will be very telling about the status of our market DT.  It doesn't get any easier than a vacant, waterfront grass lot.