Author Topic: The Ford on Bay  (Read 289745 times)

Zac T

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Re: The Ford on Bay
« Reply #315 on: January 06, 2022, 01:46:23 PM »
I would rank them like this

1. SouthEast - Probably going to be the most expensive but also the most appealing. Brings a new-to-market hotel and incorporates workforce housing. Also, I love underground parking because it maximizes what you can do with the property
2. Carter USA - It has the highest number of apartments although the base of the building seems really wide. I like the idea of open space underneath the structure and would like to know the exact square footage of retail included
3. Related - A proven track record of projects like this and is the most appealing of the low rise options. Cool that they incorporated the Great Fire of 1901 into the project
4. VanTrust - A pretty generic building that would look good somewhere that's not on the river
A distant 5th. Mid America - Another generic project that belongs somewhere that's not on the river
A very very distant 6th. Silver Hills - The absolute bare-minimum in terms of design. The most average project of them all

I'm happy that Atkins changed his mind and decided to participate in the RFP process. It'll be interesting to see how things unfold

Ken_FSU

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Re: The Ford on Bay
« Reply #316 on: January 06, 2022, 01:54:21 PM »
^My exact rankings as well, Zac.

Bonus points for Southeast as well that they've got the blessing of Hyatt, which should help facilitate complimentary development at the adjacent parcel tied up in right-of-first-refusal hell.


acme54321

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Re: The Ford on Bay
« Reply #317 on: January 06, 2022, 02:17:47 PM »
Oh, I thought the rendering on the orginal artical was Southeast's.  That's the Reverb in Atlanta.

Southeast's looks pretty amazing but that looks like it'd double (triple?) the construction cost of some of the others.
« Last Edit: January 06, 2022, 02:19:45 PM by acme54321 »

landfall

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Re: The Ford on Bay
« Reply #318 on: January 06, 2022, 03:13:06 PM »
I hate those cheap nasty looking pillars on the hardwick. I actually don't really hate any of the other developments. Southeast feels like the only natural choice though given its at least managed to get the Hyatt on side and its part of a wider plan. Just about every US Downtown with mid to high levels of growth is filled with projects like those proposed.

Actually edit: That silver hills one is really shit.
« Last Edit: January 06, 2022, 03:18:20 PM by landfall »

jaxlongtimer

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Re: The Ford on Bay
« Reply #319 on: January 06, 2022, 05:23:31 PM »
^ I would only go with Southeast based on the renderings alone.  Two main factors for me are the aesthetics of the architecture and the relationship to the river (setbacks, size and character of public spaces, public amenities).  Having the mixed use just adds to it.

All the others, I am not too impressed.

This will be another focal point for the Northbank and it should be a premier level development.  I would rather give this project $100 million in incentives than the Four Seasons based on its impact and visibility for Downtown.

fieldafm

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Re: The Ford on Bay
« Reply #320 on: January 06, 2022, 05:44:07 PM »
^ I would only go with Southeast based on the renderings alone.  Two main factors for me are the aesthetics of the architecture and the relationship to the river (setbacks, size and character of public spaces, public amenities). 

That rendering envisions an ENTIRELY new bulkhead/deck to replace the $33mm bulkhead that was just built and paid for (after, what four different increases to the construction cost cap?), and which took over 5 years to build.  Which would all be paid for (again) by taxpayers. 

That's not realistic, nor entirely financially responsible to taxpayers... but, ok.

There are other responses which actually increase setbacks (with ACTIVE uses) along the riverfront... and which won't require God knows how much more in taxpayer cash to realize.

« Last Edit: January 06, 2022, 05:46:16 PM by fieldafm »

fieldafm

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Re: The Ford on Bay
« Reply #321 on: January 06, 2022, 05:49:44 PM »
I hate those cheap nasty looking pillars on the hardwick.

Those are concrete pilings, which are entirely functional, and anything but 'cheap'.  They also mimic the same architectural elements (in both form and function) of the Hardwick-designed library (and the Hardwick-designed Friendship Fountain park that was ripped up, for that matter).

jaxlongtimer

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Re: The Ford on Bay
« Reply #322 on: January 06, 2022, 06:59:58 PM »
^ I would only go with Southeast based on the renderings alone.  Two main factors for me are the aesthetics of the architecture and the relationship to the river (setbacks, size and character of public spaces, public amenities). 

That rendering envisions an ENTIRELY new bulkhead/deck to replace the $33mm bulkhead that was just built and paid for (after, what four different increases to the construction cost cap?), and which took over 5 years to build.  Which would all be paid for (again) by taxpayers. 

That's not realistic, nor entirely financially responsible to taxpayers... but, ok.

There are other responses which actually increase setbacks (with ACTIVE uses) along the riverfront... and which won't require God knows how much more in taxpayer cash to realize.



First, I said my comments were based only on the renderings.  So, I don't have the benefit at this point as to costs or investment sources.  That said, as with all these proposals, there can be adjustments made to bend portions of the project to select realities.  It would appear from the overhead view in your post that the modification of the bulkhead would only be on one (the north) side of the "u" shaped marina inferring only a 1/3 impact on the bulkhead.  At that, maybe that portion could be phased in years down the road, if ever, when the current bulkhead begins to age out or it makes more financial sense to develop the current proposed concept for that area. Or, just come up with another design for that area that doesn't require altering the bulkhead.  Problem solved.

fieldafm

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Re: The Ford on Bay
« Reply #323 on: January 06, 2022, 07:57:24 PM »
Quote
Or, just come up with another design for that area that doesn't require altering the bulkhead.  Problem solved.

In that case, you would eliminate what you said is the most important thing to you:

Quote
(setbacks, size and character of public spaces, public amenities)

You'd be left with a 160ft-ish building along the riverfront... which is also apparently evil in your mind.  Just find that odd.

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when the current bulkhead begins to age out

That's like 50 years from now, so hopefully a developer isn't selected based on this phased in approach.  The buildings may not even be there in 50 years, given the last 100 years of Jax history.  The last time that bulkhead was built, was when the City Hall building was constructed... and that was torn down after roughly 60 years.


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there can be adjustments made to bend portions of the project to select realities


Yeah, like from this:






to this:








Sure is getting a consistently cheaper facade than the years of pretty renderings provided in press releases as years go by.   


Site plan since 2018:













People need to be less dazzled with renderings, and more realistic about how unrealistic those renderings really are.


See this:

https://www.thejaxsonmag.com/article/wait-is-lerp-not-actually-happening/

A large contract awarded because the winning bidder went well above the scope of the bid.. even though most of what was proposed is likely not realistic, like creating a living shoreline to replace a just-rebuilt bulkhead. Not only was the proposal much larger than what the City could realistically afford, they ultimately won based on a public art piece, whose actual future seems pretty tenuous.
« Last Edit: January 06, 2022, 08:49:09 PM by fieldafm »

acme54321

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Re: The Ford on Bay
« Reply #324 on: January 06, 2022, 08:34:43 PM »

People need to be less dazzled with renderings, and more realistic about how unrealistic those renderings really are.

To be fair, that second picture is a rendering of the Reverb they built in Atlanta.  JDR must have just googled and used it before they had any renderings.

I agree on these renderings.  It's tiring to see the city select/approve/give funds to these projects based on a set of renderings and false hopes and then it's all value engineered out of the final product.  Sometimes to the point that its embarrassing.  Southerly being the latest, and most egregious, example.
« Last Edit: January 06, 2022, 08:49:34 PM by fieldafm »

fieldafm

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Re: The Ford on Bay
« Reply #325 on: January 06, 2022, 08:52:36 PM »
I realized that as soon as I posted. 

I'm pretty confident that the all glass towers are likely not happening either. 

That's not like any Reverb I've seen, ever.

This is how the Atlanta version evolved:


acme54321

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Re: The Ford on Bay
« Reply #326 on: January 06, 2022, 09:01:44 PM »
No way that rendering they proposed is anything close to what would be the final product.  That's something I don't even know if they could pull off the economics on in the hottest part of South Florida.  Ok they probably could
« Last Edit: January 07, 2022, 08:23:50 AM by acme54321 »

acme54321

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Re: The Ford on Bay
« Reply #327 on: January 07, 2022, 08:48:22 AM »
Looking at these again...

One thing I like about the Hardwick (at least the rendering ::)) is that they have an area of natural shoreline.  I think it would have been really cool if the city had restored that whole area as a natural saltmarsh with a boardwalk through it.  Maybe incorporate a self guided history lesson on the river downtown and how it's been altered.  There are a lot of people that don't know the history of the waterfront and how much that area has been altered since the city was founded. 

jaxoNOLE

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Re: The Ford on Bay
« Reply #328 on: January 07, 2022, 10:30:16 AM »
Looking at these again...

One thing I like about the Hardwick (at least the rendering ::)) is that they have an area of natural shoreline.  I think it would have been really cool if the city had restored that whole area as a natural saltmarsh with a boardwalk through it.  Maybe incorporate a self guided history lesson on the river downtown and how it's been altered.  There are a lot of people that don't know the history of the waterfront and how much that area has been altered since the city was founded.

It's hard to tell from the rendering, but hopefully that design could be done relatively easily without undoing the existing bulkhead. They certainly don't look to have modified the shape of the bulkhead.

I really like the Hardwick design and using the building overhang to offer shaded, wider pedestrian spaces on the ground-level retail frontage. Sure, the SouthEast design is stunning, but I feel like the Hardwick is realistically the ceiling in our market and has fewer premium finishes assumed to make the rendering dazzle. Lop a few floors off the tower, downgrade the base building facade a notch or two...probably close to where a value-engineered version lands, right?

To that same point, I think the VanTrust entry looks "honest" as far as realistic renderings vs. likely final outcome if they are selected.

acme54321

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Re: The Ford on Bay
« Reply #329 on: January 07, 2022, 10:44:07 AM »
To that same point, I think the VanTrust entry looks "honest" as far as realistic renderings vs. likely final outcome if they are selected.

I was thinking the same.