Jacksonville to Buffalo: Show us how to revive our city

[Adam White]

To be fair, a trip to Buffalo makes sense - if they'd bother to a) learn anything and b) apply it. I remember visiting Buffalo in the late 80s (my dad is from Buffalo) and it was a festering shithole. The downtown was dead or dying and it was an extremely depressing place to be. I guess your typical rust belt city. In any event, I have family there still and they report that it's really turned around. I think "Buffalo Rising" is the strapline or something. If Buffalo can do it, Jax can do it. We have a lot more to work with - for example, people are moving to Florida.

[thelakelander]

I'd be interested to learn more about the VyStar CEO's projects in Buffalo. They may give us an early look at what is envisioned in Jax.

[I-10east]

Jax will eventually get its act together downtown. This JAX to BUF trip is all of getting inspiration from BUF's DT and nothing else. Let's not act like Buffalo as a whole doesn't have major issues. Most dying/ soon to be dying major metros like Chicago, St Louis, Pittsburgh and Cleveland have enough "meat on it's bones" to still be major cities for the foreseeable future.

If Buffalo keeps on losing people, it will eventually be headed into the sub-million zone in metro population, that's almost like being relegated (soccer analogy). Also, there are alot of metros that's around a million in pop (like Tucson, Grand Rapids, Fresno and Tulsa) that are waiting in the wings to easily push Buffalo even further down the metro population scale. Yes, keep on losing enough people and a downtown can even be affected; it's not unpresented.   

[Adam White]

Jax will eventually get its act together downtown. This JAX to BUF trip is all of getting inspiration from BUF's DT and nothing else. Let's not act like Buffalo as a whole doesn't have major issues. Most dying/ soon to be dying major metros like Chicago, St Louis, Pittsburgh and Cleveland have enough "meat on it's bones" to still be major cities for the foreseeable future.

If Buffalo keeps on losing people, it will eventually be headed into the sub-million zone in metro population, that's almost like being relegated (soccer analogy). Also, there are alot of metros that's around a million in pop (like Tucson, Grand Rapids, Fresno and Tulsa) that are waiting in the wings to easily push Buffalo even further down the metro population scale. Yes, keep on losing enough people and a downtown can even be affected; it's not unpresented.

I don't know what Buffalo's situation is like in respect of population gain/loss, but they do seem to have stopped the rot in the downtown area and are making big strides. I assume they must be attracting more businesses, etc. too.

Those rust belt cities have traditionally struggled with the loss of manufacturing jobs - but I think Chicago is doing okay.

[I-10east]

^^^BUF's metro has 1.1M people, it's 50th in overall metro population, and is losing people at a -0.47% rate, not good. New York City is the miserly money magnet in that state, and every other metro is basically neglected; Rochester -0.80, Syracuse -1.82%. Albany surprisingly has positive growth; only +1.43 and likely because state governments' systemically props up capital cities.

One of a few rust belt cities that is defying the odds is Columbus, OH growing at a very respectable +10.76. Yes Chicago (growing at only +0.40%, and trending down) will be okay, because it has a sh*tl@ad of people; even though it will eventually become a dying metro (losing more people than gaining).

Illinois is similar like New York state, being an one city focused state. People are fleeing Illinois like the plague because of high taxes among other things. All of the states around Illinois have increased in population, due to fleeing Illinoisans.
 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_metropolitan_statistical_areas

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZEyoJd8eEHw

[Adam White]

^^^BUF's metro has 1.1M people, it's 50th in overall metro population, and is losing people at a -0.47% rate, not good. New York City is the miserly money magnet in that state, and every other metro is basically neglected; Rochester -0.80, Syracuse -1.82%. Albany surprisingly has positive growth; only +1.43 and likely because state governments' systemically props up capital cities.

One of a few rust belt cities that is defying the odds is Columbus, OH growing at a very respectable +10.76. Yes Chicago (growing at only +0.40%, and trending down) will be okay, because it has a sh*tl@ad of people; even though it will eventually become a dying metro (losing more people than gaining).

Illinois is similar like New York state, being an one city focused state. People are fleeing Illinois like the plague because of high taxes among other things. All of the states around Illinois have increased in population, due to fleeing Illinoisans.
 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_metropolitan_statistical_areas

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZEyoJd8eEHw

I had a friend from Jax who moved to Columbus over a decade ago and really seems to love it. I've never been. Chicago will survive because it has a massive, diversified economy. Places like Youngstown, OH suffered when the manufacturing jobs moved away because there was nothing else to take their place. Chicago was always so much more - and it's basically the NYC of the midwest. I think it was the country's second-largest city until the mid-80s.

[Kerry]

It is 2019 - we don't need to send City leaders to other cities to see how it was done.  All they need to do is invite Jeff Speck, Charles Mahron, James Kunstler, or Andres Duany to come speak - or pick up a freaking book and read the darn thing.  Hell, if they would promise to read it I would personally buy them a copy of selected reading material at my own expense.  The New Urbanism movement (CNU) also has thousands of videos on YouTube they can watch for free.  The University of Miami offers a certificate program in New Urbanism and they will even come to Jax to give the class to everyone in City Hall.  They can also join StrongTowns or Shoupistas on Facebook.  Finally, they can join CNU (Congress for the New Urbanism) and go to their annual convention (it was just in Savannah last year).  Urbanization isn't a secret.

www.cnu.org
https://www.jeffspeck.com/
https://kunstler.com/
https://www.dpz.com/
https://mredu.arc.miami.edu/events-and-activities/new-urbanism-online/index.html
https://www.strongtowns.org/

There are few people here that are more critical of our state and local government than me.  I think urbanization is fine where it is and where it's wanted.  There are millions of us who prefer less density.  I don't want to live in a sardine society.  I like space.  I don't want the noise and chaos of cities like New York, Mexico City, Tokyo, Shanghai, etc.  Just so you can walk to a deli?  That would be so foreign to most of us.  If you like urbanism, walkable convenience, density, move to one of those places.  In my lifetime I've had so many friends complain about Jacksonville and move away.  More likely than not, most have moved back.  Me included.  Not for the density, I moved away because to me, it was getting too busy!  That's right, I want it like Mayberry.  Spread is beautiful. I have huge oaks, an acre on a creek, quiet neighborhood, and it's devine.  Be careful of what you wish for.

Then you should love New Urbanism.  New Urbanism isn't just about high density, it is also about protecting the rural and open space you say you desire.  The Rural to Urban Transect is designed to take all lifestyles and housing options into account.  If you want to live in the country it is also built into the plan.  New Urbanism would prevent density from spreading into rural areas (see the latest 4,000 homes planned for Clay County).



I'm going to peg you as a T2 (or maybe a T3) type person.

https://transect-collection.org/

BTW - I watch The Andy Griffith show almost every day - Mayberry was walkable urbanism.  Very compact downtown, grid street pattern, no subdivisions, no large surface parking lots, etc...

[thelakelander]

There's nothing new about the concept of transects or context classifications. Prior to consolidation, the entire old city of Jax fell some where between a T4 and T6.  Downtown specifically needs to working to get back to consistently being a T6. You don't reach that level of density with suburban gas stations at key intersections and blowing up high-rise buildings for lawns.

[I-10east]

I had a friend from Jax who moved to Columbus over a decade ago and really seems to love it. I've never been. Chicago will survive because it has a massive, diversified economy. Places like Youngstown, OH suffered when the manufacturing jobs moved away because there was nothing else to take their place. Chicago was always so much more - and it's basically the NYC of the midwest. I think it was the country's second-largest city until the mid-80s

No doubt Chicago at over 9M people in the metro, it is enormous. To say that it's a massive US metropolis is an understatement; despite any relatively insignificant loss of people to the metro, the city will still thrive on.

I'm still very pessimistic about the state of Illinois in general; it's high taxes, politics, corruption are making it's middle class head for more sane pastures in other states. If IL's govt doubles down on it's way it's doing things, people will continue to flee that state.