Author Topic: Downtown Breaks 5,000 residents  (Read 2368 times)

thelakelander

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Re: Downtown Breaks 5,000 residents
« Reply #15 on: August 05, 2019, 10:49:18 AM »
I believe the logical place for density to start is where it already exists and where there's a few projects already in the works. That's basically the Laura/Hogan Street corridor between Hemming/JEA Tower and Adams between the county courthouse/proposed JEA headquarters and the Laura Trio/Main Street.

For example, looking at Laura with Hyatt Place, VyStar, Barnett/Trio already in the works, the focus should be on activating city owned parcels (Landing, Library retail spaces, Snyder Memorial, Hemming) and working with the owners of the Wells Fargo and BOA Towers to better integrate their existing ground floor retail spaces to the street. Do that, you can have a decent continuous four block stretch of activity before Curry leaves office.
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Charles Hunter

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Re: Downtown Breaks 5,000 residents
« Reply #16 on: August 05, 2019, 02:22:32 PM »
Is it any surprise that a city's whose sole claim to fame is being "the largest land-area city in the lower 48", also has a sprawling downtown?  The concept of density is about as foreign as it can get.

Is Jacksonville leadership too dense to understand density?

ProjectMaximus

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Re: Downtown Breaks 5,000 residents
« Reply #17 on: August 06, 2019, 02:36:00 AM »
We need to be talking density instead of a sprawl based approach if we want vibrant streets, sooner rather than later.

Maybe the plan is to make downtown look bigger by continuing to expand its breadth. San Marco, then Lakewood and St Nicholas...eventually once the SJTC is annexed downtown will be booming!

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Re: Downtown Breaks 5,000 residents
« Reply #18 on: August 09, 2019, 03:23:08 PM »
This is a bit misleading in that our downtown parameters include a lot of water, the sports complex and industrial areas.  I measured the core, LaVilla, Brooklyn, Southbank (plus old JEA site), sports district all the way east, the parks all the way up to 8th St and I-95 on the west.....My total was 3.65 squire miles.  That includes all the water too.




I measured the sports complex, industrial section and river from that same parameters.  That removed 1.52 square miles.  We should then have an effective downtown area of 2.13 square miles.  This figure is far more accurate to use when comparing us to those other downtowns.

That gives us a population density of 2,450 per sq mile.

Employment density can better be discerned by removing just the river.  That gives us an area of about 2.6 sq miles and an employment density closer to 21,000.

It should also be noted that everyone of those other downtowns include some sections of urban neighborhoods and not just their business cores (except WPB but I think they are inflating their residential number to include areas beyond the 0.75 sq mile region).


Don't get me wrong.  I fully agree with the intent, just not the variables.

P.S. We will be losing about 150 people over the next year or so (unless they relocate to other downtown housing).  I can't say more at this time.

vicupstate

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Re: Downtown Breaks 5,000 residents
« Reply #19 on: August 09, 2019, 03:43:50 PM »
Quote
We will be losing about 150 people over the next year or so (unless they relocate to other downtown housing).  I can't say more at this time.

My guess:
Moving some Duval jail inmates to a work camp
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Kerry

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Re: Downtown Breaks 5,000 residents
« Reply #20 on: August 09, 2019, 04:02:26 PM »
This is a bit misleading in that our downtown parameters include a lot of water, the sports complex and industrial areas.  I measured the core, LaVilla, Brooklyn, Southbank (plus old JEA site), sports district all the way east, the parks all the way up to 8th St and I-95 on the west.....My total was 3.65 squire miles.  That includes all the water too.




I measured the sports complex, industrial section and river from that same parameters.  That removed 1.52 square miles.  We should then have an effective downtown area of 2.13 square miles.  This figure is far more accurate to use when comparing us to those other downtowns.

That gives us a population density of 2,450 per sq mile.

Employment density can better be discerned by removing just the river.  That gives us an area of about 2.6 sq miles and an employment density closer to 21,000.

It should also be noted that everyone of those other downtowns include some sections of urban neighborhoods and not just their business cores (except WPB but I think they are inflating their residential number to include areas beyond the 0.75 sq mile region).


Don't get me wrong.  I fully agree with the intent, just not the variables.

P.S. We will be losing about 150 people over the next year or so (unless they relocate to other downtown housing).  I can't say more at this time.

 I get the intent to exclude the river from the calculations, but the river exists and factors into the daily life of living downtown.  It is a significant barrier to cross for pedestrians.  From a pedestrian point of view, it is almost as big a walkability obstacle as the Riverside/Jefferson/Acosta bridge interchange debacle.  If anything, it means downtown Jax has to be even more urban and dense to make up for the massive amount of dead space to be comparable to the other cities mentioned.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2019, 04:06:11 PM by Kerry »
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thelakelander

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Re: Downtown Breaks 5,000 residents
« Reply #21 on: August 09, 2019, 04:05:37 PM »
This is a bit misleading in that our downtown parameters include a lot of water, the sports complex and industrial areas.  I measured the core, LaVilla, Brooklyn, Southbank (plus old JEA site), sports district all the way east, the parks all the way up to 8th St and I-95 on the west.....My total was 3.65 squire miles.  That includes all the water too.




I measured the sports complex, industrial section and river from that same parameters.  That removed 1.52 square miles.  We should then have an effective downtown area of 2.13 square miles.  This figure is far more accurate to use when comparing us to those other downtowns.

That gives us a population density of 2,450 per sq mile.

Employment density can better be discerned by removing just the river.  That gives us an area of about 2.6 sq miles and an employment density closer to 21,000.

It should also be noted that everyone of those other downtowns include some sections of urban neighborhoods and not just their business cores (except WPB but I think they are inflating their residential number to include areas beyond the 0.75 sq mile region).


Don't get me wrong.  I fully agree with the intent, just not the variables.

P.S. We will be losing about 150 people over the next year or so (unless they relocate to other downtown housing).  I can't say more at this time.
The 3.95 square mile number comes from DVI. However, I get where you're coming from. I can pull the GIS shapefile later to drill down on land area accuracy.  However, for comparisons sake, I'd also need to do the same for the other downtowns (every downtown, excluding Orlando is on a river or bay). Overall the point would be the same. DT Jax at +2k population density would be around the density of Orange Park. Assuming the other downtown organization's provided numbers also change, their densities could be much higher. Ultimately, if compared directly to these other places, in terms of the type of vibrancy people would like to see, we'll need to get pretty close to their population densities.
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bl8jaxnative

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Re: Downtown Breaks 5,000 residents
« Reply #22 on: August 11, 2019, 07:25:21 PM »

Jacksonville is odd in having a river running through the downtown.  Most cities do not have this.  Rivers are physical barriers that create a natural border to a neighborhood.   It's strange that Jacksonville insists that it's downtown is on both sides of the river.   

There are a few cities that have rivers running through their CBD.  But in those cases the rivers are very narrow.   Providence and Milwaukee have rivers but they create a gap no more than 125 - 175' wide.   Some like San Antonio the river is so narrow that most folks wonder why it's called a river. 

The one's with a river in the CBD that wasn't narrow that I could find were Columbus, OH ( apparently that left back on the SCiolo [sic] River is considered downtown-downtown ) at @600 ft, Des Moines with the Des Moines River creating a @400 foot gap.   The only other one I could find before it reached the point where it was becoming work was Chicago with a 200 - 300 ft gap with the Chicago River.

Jacksonville probably has the biggest gap in it's downtown from a river. 



No River thru CBD:
Austin, TX
Boston, MA
Buffalo, NY
Cincinnati, OH
Cleveland, OH
Colorado Springs, CO
Denver, CO
Kansas City, MO
LIttle Rock, AR
Louisville, KY
Memphis, TN
Minneapolis, MN
New Haven, CT
Omaha, NE
Phoenix, AZ
Raleigh, NC
Richmond, VA
Sacramento, CA
Salt Lake City, UT
St. Louis, MO
St. Paul, MN
Tuscon, AZ

thelakelander

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Re: Downtown Breaks 5,000 residents
« Reply #23 on: August 11, 2019, 07:58:20 PM »
Quote
Jacksonville is odd in having a river running through the downtown.  Most cities do not have this.  Rivers are physical barriers that create a natural border to a neighborhood.   It's strange that Jacksonville insists that it's downtown is on both sides of the river.

Jax is no different than many other places. We just annexed the Southbank and started including it as a part of downtown in the declining second half of the 20th century......just like we did with Brooklyn, LaVilla and the Sports District.

Honestly, the Southbank shouldn't even be considered "downtown". Even today, the people who live there (Peninsula, Strand, San Marco Place, etc.) are more connected with San Marco than they are with the Northbank and it's for good reason. Both of them were the City of South Jacksonville. Just because you build a freeway through the place doesn't mean how people interact at ground level won't still resort back to the traditional historical pattern. After all, the intersection of Prudential and Hendricks was once a part of South Jacksonville's CBD. But I do understand the reason of annexing surrounding urban neighborhoods to hide the Northbanks' numbers to the rest of the overall world for marketing sake.


https://www.floridamemory.com/items/show/142466


https://www.floridamemory.com/items/show/142072


https://www.floridamemory.com/items/show/142071


https://www.floridamemory.com/items/show/166955

In any event, the need and challenge is still the same. At worst, we're the density of Wauchula. At best, we're the density of Orange Park. Reach the DVI's goal of 10k and it would still have lower density than Baymeadows. We have to work to implement strategies to dramatically increase the density in select areas or risk the sleepy landscape continuing to remain sleepy generations into the future.

« Last Edit: August 11, 2019, 08:00:37 PM by thelakelander »
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thelakelander

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Re: Downtown Breaks 5,000 residents
« Reply #24 on: August 11, 2019, 08:18:34 PM »
The one's with a river in the CBD that wasn't narrow that I could find were Columbus, OH ( apparently that left back on the SCiolo [sic] River is considered downtown-downtown ) at @600 ft, Des Moines with the Des Moines River creating a @400 foot gap.   The only other one I could find before it reached the point where it was becoming work was Chicago with a 200 - 300 ft gap with the Chicago River.

Jacksonville probably has the biggest gap in it's downtown from a river.

I don't think River North is considered "downtown" Chicago. I believe, that's just the Loop and the Loop doesn't cross the Chicago River. The closest thing I can think of that would be similar to the Northbank/Southbank situation would be the Elizabeth River in Hampton Roads. It would be like Norfolk merging with Portsmouth and them calling both of those CBDs on opposite sides of a wide waterway......downtown.

EDIT: Detroit, Windsor and the Detroit River would be another example but they're in two totally different countries.





« Last Edit: August 11, 2019, 08:26:58 PM by thelakelander »
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I-10east

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Re: Downtown Breaks 5,000 residents
« Reply #25 on: August 11, 2019, 10:51:05 PM »
Imagine that population number if you include nearby Brooklyn and Riverside; suddenly it's a respectable number. But of course the only urban population that matters only exists in the shadows of tall skyscrapers.... I'm not downplaying that downtown needs more housing and entertainment either.

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Re: Downtown Breaks 5,000 residents
« Reply #26 on: August 12, 2019, 03:59:23 AM »
Imagine that population number if you include nearby Brooklyn and Riverside; suddenly it's a respectable number. But of course the only urban population that matters only exists in the shadows of tall skyscrapers.... I'm not downplaying that downtown needs more housing and entertainment either.

I thought Brooklyn was included. Maybe not. In any event, the issue is one of density, not numbers. Of course, including Riverside would help the density slightly, but it's not very dense anyway. And no way is it remotely downtown. It's most certainly not in the CBD, which is the problem.
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thelakelander

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Re: Downtown Breaks 5,000 residents
« Reply #27 on: August 12, 2019, 06:05:41 AM »
Yes, the issue is less on population and more on building density within the central business district. Moving boundaries to make yourself look better on paper doesn't address or fix the problem.
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Tacachale

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Re: Downtown Breaks 5,000 residents
« Reply #28 on: August 12, 2019, 07:26:24 AM »
Imagine that population number if you include nearby Brooklyn and Riverside; suddenly it's a respectable number. But of course the only urban population that matters only exists in the shadows of tall skyscrapers.... I'm not downplaying that downtown needs more housing and entertainment either.

I thought Brooklyn was included. Maybe not. In any event, the issue is one of density, not numbers. Of course, including Riverside would help the density slightly, but it's not very dense anyway. And no way is it remotely downtown. It's most certainly not in the CBD, which is the problem.

Brooklyn is included.
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Re: Downtown Breaks 5,000 residents
« Reply #29 on: August 12, 2019, 05:22:54 PM »
Yes, the issue is less on population and more on building density within the central business district. Moving boundaries to make yourself look better on paper doesn't address or fix the problem.
Similar to what we did with consolidation yeah? Of course, there were other problems that lent to making the decision to consolidate, but population and density shows a glaring discrepancy...i.e., might have got rid of the political, economic, and financial problems, but population and building density did not show a success as a result of consolidation; we had those problems in 1960-1970, and still have them today. Thus I understand the problem of expanding downtown but the population and density is still low relative to Jax's population size compared to other cities.
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