Author Topic: Curry, Boyer offer Updates on Downtown Projects  (Read 2506 times)

Steve

  • The Jaxson
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3111
Re: Curry, Boyer offer Updates on Downtown Projects
« Reply #15 on: July 12, 2019, 12:27:05 PM »
^The problem is "we" didn't decide. That was a closed door decision made by those who likely don't even know or comprehend the full history, cause and effect of why and how we got to this point today. Because of that ignorance, even well intended dreams can be destined to follow the same path of failure as the generations before them. Unfortunately, groups like the civic council, who gave their public opinion on everything Alvin Brown proposed downtown, have been silent on the current issues.

True. And yes, the Civic Council has been very tight lipped.

I guess the one positive to the 1980's Convention Center decision is it likely saved the Train Station. Further, if they didn't demo everything in a four block radius around it, perhaps a cool area could have developed.

thelakelander

  • The Jaxson
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 30140
    • Modern Cities
Re: Curry, Boyer offer Updates on Downtown Projects
« Reply #16 on: July 12, 2019, 12:45:52 PM »
True. And yes, the Civic Council has been very tight lipped.

Because of this, they've lost credibility with me when it comes to their concerns about the school board's master plan (which I do believe could be improved to where the neighborhoods surrounding school sites also could economically benefit).
"A man who views the world the same at 50 as he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life.” - Muhammad Ali

acme54321

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2421
Re: Curry, Boyer offer Updates on Downtown Projects
« Reply #17 on: July 12, 2019, 01:53:03 PM »
Old Courthouse: They mentioned a "city owned parcel east of the Hyatt". Is that the Landing East lot or the small parking lot on Bay Street next to the Main St Bridge Ramp? Also, doesn't the Hyatt owner have an option on it? What's to stop them from responding with a P3 on a Exhibition Hall?

Those are all west of the Hyatt.

The parcel that is being referred to is the submerged land where the courthouse parking lot used to be.

Steve

  • The Jaxson
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3111
Re: Curry, Boyer offer Updates on Downtown Projects
« Reply #18 on: July 12, 2019, 02:27:56 PM »
Old Courthouse: They mentioned a "city owned parcel east of the Hyatt". Is that the Landing East lot or the small parking lot on Bay Street next to the Main St Bridge Ramp? Also, doesn't the Hyatt owner have an option on it? What's to stop them from responding with a P3 on a Exhibition Hall?

Those are all west of the Hyatt.

The parcel that is being referred to is the submerged land where the courthouse parking lot used to be.

Oh. Wow, fail on geography. Why the heck would they spend all that time and money on rebuilding the whole thing only to fill it in!?

All the more reason they should have issued this RFP as the buildings were preparing to be vacant. You knew this day was coming when you broke ground on the Courthouse.

acme54321

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2421
Re: Curry, Boyer offer Updates on Downtown Projects
« Reply #19 on: July 12, 2019, 03:12:14 PM »
I don't think anyone is suggesting to fill it in.  The old structure was failing which is why it had to be removed.  They are just presenting the option to build over the water again.  I personally think it would be really cool to restore it back to a natural salt marsh area as part of the riverwalk.

Steve

  • The Jaxson
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3111
Re: Curry, Boyer offer Updates on Downtown Projects
« Reply #20 on: July 12, 2019, 03:23:57 PM »
I don't think anyone is suggesting to fill it in.  The old structure was failing which is why it had to be removed.  They are just presenting the option to build over the water again.  I personally think it would be really cool to restore it back to a natural salt marsh area as part of the riverwalk.

That would be cool, and I guess including that land would also cover things like a marina, etc. I suppose that part of the RFP isn't so dumb:)

I still feel like a Convention Center adjacent to the Hyatt would be an excellent use, and you can build in retail on the Bay Street side, as well as come up with ways to activate it on the river side (Convention Centers do have the downside that after 7PM-ish they can be dead areas). Too bad we had to issue such an overblown RFP.

thelakelander

  • The Jaxson
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 30140
    • Modern Cities
Re: Curry, Boyer offer Updates on Downtown Projects
« Reply #21 on: July 12, 2019, 04:07:12 PM »
Still think it would be pretty dumb not to include the possibility of a mixed use exhibition hall on the old city hall site. Also, I like the idea of a marsh mixed in some way.
"A man who views the world the same at 50 as he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life.” - Muhammad Ali

Kerry

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1601
Re: Curry, Boyer offer Updates on Downtown Projects
« Reply #22 on: July 13, 2019, 07:22:12 PM »
If the City thinks they are going to build over the river again in this day and age they are as stupid as I think they are.
Third Place

heights unknown

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1796
  • HEIGHTS UNKNOWN (DAMMIT!)
    • FRESH START SOCIAL SERVICES
Re: Curry, Boyer offer Updates on Downtown Projects
« Reply #23 on: July 14, 2019, 06:41:16 PM »
I was in Jax yesterday, 7/13/19. All I gotta say is, they'd better do something quick and fast. Upon cruising around downtown last night, all I can say is bleak, sad, dreary, downtown felt like a coffin buried six feet under with no body in it; no soul, no spirit, nothing; there were pockets of action around bay street, Monroe, etc., but all in all, what a disgrace. Something akin or similar to the Landing needs to either be built in its place and a tad better than the Landing, or keep the Landing and upgrade it and make it better...that end of downtown needs an intense shot in the arm. I live in Sarasota, a city of 60,000  south of Tampa, and Sarasota is popping not just on the weekend, but also on the weekdays! Monday is the bleakest day of all, but even on that day, there are people gracing the bars, restaurants, sidewalk cafe's and restaurants, and other venues. I just don't get it with our leaders in Jax (yes, Jax is my city...I have to be down here for my Mom who is now in her 80's). I hope it changes soon, and changes fast.
PLEASE FEEL FREE TO ACCESS MY PERSONAL FACEBOOK PAGE AT: https://www.facebook.com/garrybernardcoston.personal, or, access my Social Service Agency Facebook page if you love supporting charities/social entities at: https://www.facebook.com/FRESHSTARTSOCIALSERVICEAGENCY/; thank you!!!

acme54321

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2421
Re: Curry, Boyer offer Updates on Downtown Projects
« Reply #24 on: July 14, 2019, 07:46:18 PM »
If the City thinks they are going to build over the river again in this day and age they are as stupid as I think they are.

If they own the submerged land there's nothing stopping them.  No onebis going to easily get away with dredge and fill these days but if whoever ends up with that land wants to put something pile supported back on the site I don't think they'll have much of a problem.
« Last Edit: July 14, 2019, 07:49:30 PM by acme54321 »

KenFSU

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3946
Re: Curry, Boyer offer Updates on Downtown Projects
« Reply #25 on: July 14, 2019, 08:44:12 PM »
Something akin or similar to the Landing needs to either be built in its place and a tad better than the Landing, or keep the Landing and upgrade it and make it better...that end of downtown needs an intense shot in the arm. I live in Sarasota, a city of 60,000  south of Tampa, and Sarasota is popping not just on the weekend, but also on the weekdays! Monday is the bleakest day of all, but even on that day, there are people gracing the bars, restaurants, sidewalk cafe's and restaurants, and other venues. I just don't get it with our leaders in Jax (yes, Jax is my city...I have to be down here for my Mom who is now in her 80's). I hope it changes soon, and changes fast.

Having spent a lot of time in Sarasota, and seen similar downtown revitalization in my hometown of Fort Myers 80 miles to the south, I know exactly what you're talking about, with the restaurants, bars, and sidewalk cafes lining the streets for blocks.

What's a little troubling to me is that, even as kid walking around the central business districts of those two cities, I could visualize what the bustle used to be like before the suburban flight, and street after street of largely uninterrupted storefronts were still standing, ready to be brought back to life via smart master planning.

For the area of downtown that you're describing - the northbank central business district - with so much demolition taking place in the last few decades, it's getting harder and harder to even imagine what critical mass could even look like. You walk down the streets and there are just so many surface lots, dead stretches of retail-less parking garage walls, 9-to-5 government and office buildings with no street interaction, First Baptist properties, etc. that it feels like the infrastructure itself severely limits the ability to cluster complementing uses in a compact setting, as Ennis always says.

Is there an example of a city doing this much damage to its urban fabric and bouncing back? Can our downtown actually be more than the isolated pockets of activity you mention and become a more vibrant whole with so much of the connective tissue being demolished or turned into dead space? The optimist is me says yes, it's possible. The pessimist says it's going to take decades to undo the damage that has already been done.


heights unknown

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1796
  • HEIGHTS UNKNOWN (DAMMIT!)
    • FRESH START SOCIAL SERVICES
Re: Curry, Boyer offer Updates on Downtown Projects
« Reply #26 on: July 14, 2019, 09:31:04 PM »
Thanks Ken; at least I know I am not the only one seeing this...at least I now know I am not going crazy. I was in Jax in February, but didn't really get to downtown in the evening. But what I saw yesterday was so depressing. Dark, dreary, empty. When I was living in Jax in the early 90's, a German friend of mine came to visit (again this was in the early 90's). When he saw the skyline he was so excited, and then when we got into downtown, the urban core, he was very disappointed because there wasn't much to do, not many bars or restaurants, and back then the Landing was basically the only game in town. I looked at the disappointment in his face as he was taking pictures and I asked him what was wrong; he told me, "ALL THOSE TALL BUILDINGS AND NOTHING HAPPENING." And that is so true of Jax, and many other cities around the nation...however, a lot of them are still light years ahead of Jacksonville. I hope we get it together soon in the form of some type of explosion...yes, me the optimist, and it can happen!
« Last Edit: July 14, 2019, 09:34:10 PM by heights unknown »
PLEASE FEEL FREE TO ACCESS MY PERSONAL FACEBOOK PAGE AT: https://www.facebook.com/garrybernardcoston.personal, or, access my Social Service Agency Facebook page if you love supporting charities/social entities at: https://www.facebook.com/FRESHSTARTSOCIALSERVICEAGENCY/; thank you!!!

thelakelander

  • The Jaxson
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 30140
    • Modern Cities
Re: Curry, Boyer offer Updates on Downtown Projects
« Reply #27 on: July 14, 2019, 10:18:41 PM »
Toledo and Rochester are two cities I've visited in the last decade that seemed to be DT Jax's siblings with what not to do. However, the both had the excuse of a declining population. I haven't been to either in a few years, so I don't know if they've changed.
"A man who views the world the same at 50 as he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life.” - Muhammad Ali

Steve

  • The Jaxson
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3111
Re: Curry, Boyer offer Updates on Downtown Projects
« Reply #28 on: July 15, 2019, 08:38:04 AM »
If the City thinks they are going to build over the river again in this day and age they are as stupid as I think they are.

If they own the submerged land there's nothing stopping them.  No onebis going to easily get away with dredge and fill these days but if whoever ends up with that land wants to put something pile supported back on the site I don't think they'll have much of a problem.

Agreed. My first reaction was filling it in, which yea, would be stupid. But if someone wants to do something with pilings then that could make sense. It could also allow for something like a small pier/kayak launch/etc.

Once I wrapped my head around it (and remembered which way “east” was) it actually makes sense to offer that up as an option.

heights unknown

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1796
  • HEIGHTS UNKNOWN (DAMMIT!)
    • FRESH START SOCIAL SERVICES
Re: Curry, Boyer offer Updates on Downtown Projects
« Reply #29 on: July 15, 2019, 02:31:44 PM »
Toledo and Rochester are two cities I've visited in the last decade that seemed to be DT Jax's siblings with what not to do. However, the both had the excuse of a declining population. I haven't been to either in a few years, so I don't know if they've changed.
Wow; not too familiar with those two cities, but Jax is gaining in population so there shouldn't be an excuse. However, that population gain could be illusory owing to consolidation (whole county being Jax except for a few towns that opted out); i.e., the old city limits, boundaries, and the immediate areas in and around downtown are wholly not doing so well, so it could explain why those areas in and around the urban core are not doing well and just not responding (owe it also to our inept government leaders and administration). Curry seems to think we're doing just fine; I don't think so. We soon shall see, if we're not nuked, a few years from now. Hope the economy and/or a major recession doesn't take hold anytime soon.
PLEASE FEEL FREE TO ACCESS MY PERSONAL FACEBOOK PAGE AT: https://www.facebook.com/garrybernardcoston.personal, or, access my Social Service Agency Facebook page if you love supporting charities/social entities at: https://www.facebook.com/FRESHSTARTSOCIALSERVICEAGENCY/; thank you!!!