Author Topic: Florida Times-Union: Don’t demolish the Landing before examining adaptive reuse  (Read 11990 times)

Kerry

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Thanks Adam.  I'll take a look but it sounds like exactly what I wrote about lacking competition.
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Captain Zissou

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San Marco doesn't compete with 5-Points for businesses, which in turn doesn't compete with Avondale, which in turn doesn't compete with Springfield (because all of them have anti-growth populations and civic groups).

What kind of competition are you looking for?  Weekly brawls in memorial park?  The competitive spirit is alive and well in all three, I can assure you.

thelakelander

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Definitely agree with Adam White. People in Jax are no different than people in Tampa, Pensacola or Macon. Unfortunately, Jax hasn't had the leadership in place long enough that get's urbanity or at least knows the right resources that do...or been willing to put its money where its mouth is. You want change as a city? Develop a vision, stick to it and invest in yourself. Get the basics right and everything else will naturally take care of itself. No need to waste time and money trying to teach people living in Oceanway about the merits of a vibrant downtown.
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Adam White

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Thanks Adam.  I'll take a look but it sounds like exactly what I wrote about lacking competition.

It's a fascinating book - it's basically about using economic theory to explain things that aren't really economics. It more or less explores human behaviour. The book has had its fair share of criticism and some of the conclusions might be questionable, but the idea is very interesting.

There is a Jacksonville connection, too - they do a bit about Stetson Kennedy (though they later addressed the fact that a lot of what he said was made up).
“If you're going to play it out of tune, then play it out of tune properly.”

Adam White

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Definitely agree with Adam White. People in Jax are no different than people in Tampa, Pensacola or Macon. Unfortunately, Jax hasn't had the leadership in place long enough that get's urbanity or at least knows the right resources that do...or been willing to put its money where its mouth is. You want change as a city? Develop a vision, stick to it and invest in yourself. Get the basics right and everything else will naturally take care of itself. No need to waste time and money trying to teach people living in Oceanway about the merits of a vibrant downtown.

I think people in Jacksonville are jaded or perhaps have grown up in a city that doesn't do anything other then tear stuff down. But with the right leadership and a bit of sustained success, those opinions will change. People aren't just going to decide things can be different - they need to be shown they can be different.
“If you're going to play it out of tune, then play it out of tune properly.”

thelakelander

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I agree. This is exactly what played out in Central Florida 10 to 15 years ago.
"A man who views the world the same at 50 as he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life.” - Muhammad Ali

Charles Hunter

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<snip>

We don't have any suburbs that compete thanks to consoludation (actually - did any towns even get absorbed into Jax other than the 3 beach communities that eventually broke away again).

<snip>


Huge detour from the point of this thread, but the separate status of the 3 Beaches cities and Baldwin, was built into the Consolidation referendum.   I do not recall any other incorporated areas in 1968 that were absorbed by the Jacksonville-Duval merger.  I think thelakelander has written about this, but, absent consolidation, at least some of the neighborhoods adjacent to he 1967 city limits likely would have been annexed into Jacksonville; while more distant neighborhoods may have sought to incorporate to supplement inadequate services from Duval County.

Kerry

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Thanks Charles.  It is just odd that there were no other towns around.
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Steve

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San Marco doesn't compete with 5-Points for businesses, which in turn doesn't compete with Avondale, which in turn doesn't compete with Springfield (because all of them have anti-growth populations and civic groups).

I actually thought your point was good except for this point. I'd add Murray Hill to this list and between the four of them, I definitely feel like their is some good competition.

In terms of other cities, I do think you make a point. To Charles' point, the beaches and Baldwin never "broke away". Their status today was part of the consolidation vote, where they basically utilize the Consolidated City of Jacksonville for services that a county government would ordinarily provide.

However, in cities that are much smaller geographically, there's much more of an incentive to not let retail go to places like Town Center where they wouldn't pay city taxes. Here's that a non-issue.

Do I think it's an issue? Yes. Insurmountable, no.

Kerry

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I bring up the internal competition of our existing commercial areas because I don't see it.  Every time a business wants to expand or contruct a new building it is met with overwhelming resistance.  I don't see that happening in other cities I am familiar with.

I have been in Chicagoland for the past 6 months and every railroad suburb is refurbishing their downtowns, adding housing at a staggering rate, recruiting employers and small businesses.  And these aren't all big towns like Naperville and Aurora.  These are small towns like Lisle and Wheaton and Glen Ellyn which are more in scale to 5 Points, San Marco, and Avondale except they are their own towns.
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pierre

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San Marco doesn't compete with 5-Points for businesses, which in turn doesn't compete with Avondale, which in turn doesn't compete with Springfield (because all of them have anti-growth populations and civic groups).

What kind of competition are you looking for?  Weekly brawls in memorial park?  The competitive spirit is alive and well in all three, I can assure you.

Old time baseball games? Although I feel like Springfield would be the heavy favorite.

Steve

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I bring up the internal competition of our existing commercial areas because I don't see it.  Every time a business wants to expand or contruct a new building it is met with overwhelming resistance.  I don't see that happening in other cities I am familiar with.

I have been in Chicagoland for the past 6 months and every railroad suburb is refurbishing their downtowns, adding housing at a staggering rate, recruiting employers and small businesses.  And these aren't all big towns like Naperville and Aurora.  These are small towns like Lisle and Wheaton and Glen Ellyn which are more in scale to 5 Points, San Marco, and Avondale except they are their own towns.

Honestly if I thought about "competition", I think Jacksonville would be best served if Downtown, R/A, San Marco, Springfield, Murray Hill, Durkeeville, etc. were to work together to create competition versus the true suburban parts of town. For example, if I'm a Riverside resident, a new retail store is much more preferred in San Marco vs. Town Center. I really don't much care if it goes to San Marco vs. Riverside (I might say, "aw darn", but it's nowhere near the feeling if a place in Riverside closes up and moves to Town Center).

Captain Zissou

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Honestly if I thought about "competition", I think Jacksonville would be best served if Downtown, R/A, San Marco, Springfield, Murray Hill, Durkeeville, etc. were to work together to create competition versus the true suburban parts of town.
This right here.  I think some of the business owners are already doing this, but the city government is the main obstacle to this.

Kerry

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That would be great but good luck getting RAP to support growth.  The biggest obsticle isn't the City, it is the preservation groups.  If RAP was pro-growth there would be a new apartment building and retail under construction on King St right now.  Even Murray Hill came out in force against their first new construction in a generation.
« Last Edit: June 19, 2019, 04:44:20 PM by Kerry »
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thelakelander

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Thanks Charles.  It is just odd that there were no other towns around.

Murray Hill, South Jacksonville (San Marco), East Jacksonville, Fairfield and Mandarin were all incorporated municipalities at some point in the past. However, by consolidation that had either already been absorbed by Jacksonville or had lost their incorporated status.
"A man who views the world the same at 50 as he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life.” - Muhammad Ali