Author Topic: Atlanta Developer Shares Vision for $300 Million Town Center Development  (Read 5978 times)

KenFSU

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https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/article/atlanta-developer-shares-vision-for-dollar300-million-village-center-at-i-295-butler

Gotta say, it looks pretty epic.

Wish we saw the same level of development in the core that we're seeing in the Town Center area, but happy to see dollars pumped into our city by outside developers.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2019, 12:05:02 PM by KenFSU »

Tacachale

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Epic LOL at this:

Quote

Imagine historic San Marco Square – but larger – dropped into a signature Southside property.

...

“We superimposed the San Marco retail district to get that feel and we tweaked it to fit our project,” Fuqua said Friday.


So it's like San Marco Square, just surrounded by surface parking instead of a neighborhood?
Do you believe that when the blue jay or another bird sings and the body is trembling, that is a signal that people are coming or something important is about to happen?

dp8541

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99% chance this is operational before ground is broken at Kahn's stadium district?

acme54321

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Stationary food trucks....  Interesting.

dp8541

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assuming it would be something similar to Sparkman's Wharf which recently opened in Tampa.  They have numerous restaurants in shipping containers with full electricity, plumbing, etc.   

https://sparkmanwharf.com/

CityLife

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I’d imagine that if Life Time Fitness comes to Jax, this will be the site they choose. They are expanding around Florida right now and would be a big get for Jax. I’ve posted before that some of the residential developers looking at the project will bring some interesting concepts that Jax hasn’t really seen. Also, the food truck concept should be branded as a “gastro park” like this one in Tijuana. Been here before and it’s amazing.

https://sometimeshome.com/food-trucks-tijuana-telefonica-gastro-park/

I think Jax is at a real risk of losing some traction in the in town neighborhoods with young professionals if it doesn’t get its act together soon. Some how St. John’s County is now the music capital of NE Florida. If the Butler/295 corridor does actually get it together with a quality development here, you may see the cities culinary and drinking scene shift south in the long term.


thelakelander

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Cool suburban project. What takes place at town center has nothing to do with the foolishness going on in Downtown Jacksonville. They're totally different markets.  I have no problem with suburban development being built better. Vibrant cities all across the country have managed to bring more life to their central business districts while stuff like this sprouts up in the burbs.
"A man who views the world the same at 50 as he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life.” - Muhammad Ali

CityLife

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Cool suburban project. What takes place at town center has nothing to do with the foolishness going on in Downtown Jacksonville. They're totally different markets.  I have no problem with suburban development being built better. Vibrant cities all across the country have managed to bring more life to their central business districts while stuff like this sprouts up in the burbs.
I know a decent amount of people that have left Jax's In Town neighborhoods for Nocatee, and Nocatee is a poorly designed Master Planned Community with fairly blah homes and little walkability and connectivity to commercial uses. I've seen conceptual site plans from a builder that is looking at the residential component of the Skinner project and they are far better than Nocatee, and offer a product not found in Jax. The location is optimal to bring in high quality commercial tenants, many of whom are not in Jax yet, and would likely not want to locate in the Town Center. IF a high quality development ever happens in that area, I think it absolutely will pull some current residents away from the In Town neighborhoods and more importantly pull in more future young professionals that would have previously moved to In Town neighborhoods. In the next 5-10 years, a lot of Boomers that have been the backbone of San Marco and Riverside/Avondale for years will be transitioning to retirement homes in North Carolina, Montana, The Villages, Assisted Living, etc. If Downtown is not able to provide enough culture, live music, recreation/outdoor activities, quality dining, etc; I strongly believe that many people in the future will choose quality suburbs with elements of walkability, over the In Town neighborhoods, particularly if Jax is not able to solve its crime issues.

To your point Lake, I don't think projects like this prevent anything from happening Downtown in the short term (like The District or Lot J), but I think long term can pull away a lot of residents that are necessary for Downtown to be sustainable. There is no Downtown without strong In Town neighborhoods filled with educated working professionals.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2019, 04:47:43 PM by CityLife »

thelakelander

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I'm not too worried about it. All educated working professionals aren't the same, come from the same cultural backgrounds or are attracted to the same types of lifestyle offerings. I'm sure we all have educated friends that have left because the metropolitan area is simply not cosmopolitan enough. I've got a group of educated black professional friends that would never consider St. Johns because its too overwhelmingly white. I have others that have left and moved to places like Harlem, Atlanta and DC because they felt Jax wasn't culturally diverse enough to raise their kids. Then there's others that have moved to the Nocatees, CR 210s, SR 200s of the region as well. Overall, these movement patterns are typical.

With this particular project, we're talking about a 700 unit apartment complex and some commercial space inside of a 1,000 acre development, which for the most part, will be just like everything else popping up off Gate Parkway. At best, it's a much smaller (and hopefully better designed) version of Oakleaf. These things come a dime of dozen in most places. Jax is just arriving to the party late.

As baby boomers age, head to surrounding counties, etc., a new and more culturally diverse population continues to replace them, adding a cosmopolitan flair to this city that it has long lacked. From this perspective, Jax is large enough for multiple scenes to incrementally grow where certain areas will appeal to certain parts of each demographic. My true major worry is COJ ripping apart the best thing the core has going for it in the short term....which is its older architecture and sense of place for dreams of watered down SJCT type infill development. The one thing that can't be replicated that we should be building and promoting up in the core, we're spending big bucks to rid ourselves of it. Doing this will negatively impact its potential in the long term.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2019, 05:25:48 PM by thelakelander »
"A man who views the world the same at 50 as he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life.” - Muhammad Ali

CityLife

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With this particular project, we're talking about a 700 unit apartment complex and some commercial space inside of a 1,000 acre development, which for the most part, will be just like everything else popping up off Gate Parkway. At best, it's a much smaller (and hopefully better designed) version of Oakleaf. These things come a dime of dozen in most places. Jax is just arriving to the party late.

You are just looking at the Fuqua component of the development. There are 4,600 dwelling units total in the Skinner Development and 3.5 million square feet of non-residential. From a qualitative perspective, it will be completely different than Oakleaf. As I said, I know one of the residential developers looking at the project and they are on a different level than what you find in Oakleaf or Nocatee. On the non-residential side, there are a lot of national restaurants and retailers not yet in Jax that would find this a better fit than the St. Johns Town Center. For instance, I'm working on a big redevelopment in North Palm Beach County and the first existing tenant to be pushed out is Cheesecake Factory, as a lot of the new tenants don't want to have any association with them. There is a whole market of new to Jax tenants that can be brought in if Fuqua/Skinner really know what they are doing. From a trade area perspective, this is probably the most optimal location in the entire metro area for average household incomes.

I've probably been a broken record about this over the years, but the sheer amount of developable land between JTB, ICW, 295, and Nocatee provides limitless development opportunities and could damage DT Jax and the In Town neighborhoods if the City doesn't get it together. At least most of this area is in Duval and will be able to lift up the tax base in the future.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2019, 06:35:18 PM by CityLife »

thelakelander

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I'm consider the 4,600 dwelling units at max build out over the next few of decades. Right now, I'm just not sold that it will have significant, if any impact at all (positive or negative), on the urban core's fortunes. Around 1999, Oakleaf entered the scene with a proposed build out of 11,000 homes and 2.5 million square feet of commercial space. Across the river, Bartram Park came in around the same time with a planned max build out of 9,700 residential units, 1.3 million square feet of commercial space, 1.7 million square feet of office space and 300 hotel units. Like Nocatee, both have been pretty successful. Since 2000, the metro area also added over 400,000 new residents. I believe our long term growth will absorb many of the projects like this. So as long as the core has a significant employment base (white collar, logistics and manufacturing), historic housing, cheaper housing, entertainment, parks, the river, cultural diversity, easy commutes, being more multimodal friendly, etc. it will continue to cater to a portion of the continuing growing regional market. Short of going full rust belt style, at a minimum, those that leave areas like Riverside, Springfield, San Marco, Brooklyn, Murray Hill, etc. will be replaced by newcomers interested in those scenes for a variety of reasons.

The biggest question facing the urban core to me is can we harness the potential of Northwest Jax and the Eastside? For so long, they've been ignored. Unfortunately, DT is screwed for the foreseeable future if the current redevelopment strategy stays in place. The downtown question will likely have to wait until Curry's time in office comes to an end. However, at most, that's only four years. Some of these proposed developments we're reading about now (like this one....and the Shipyards), probably won't even be open by then.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2019, 07:53:37 PM by thelakelander »
"A man who views the world the same at 50 as he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life.” - Muhammad Ali

bl8jaxnative

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Short of going full rust belt style, at a minimum, those that leave areas like Riverside, Springfield, San Marco, Brooklyn, Murray Hill, etc. will be replaced by newcomers interested in those scenes for a variety of reasons.

The landscape is getting more competitive.   The oldest millennial are hitting 40.   The single largest generation in our country is shifting from 20-somethings, primed to share a house with roommates and go out 4 nights a week to parents looking for a backyard and good schools.  There may not be enough in Gen Z to make up for that loss.


acme54321

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The historic neighborhoods have something untouchable that a copy cat development in the suburbs can't provide.  They'll be fine.  Different strokes for different folks.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2019, 09:28:11 PM by acme54321 »

thelakelander

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Short of going full rust belt style, at a minimum, those that leave areas like Riverside, Springfield, San Marco, Brooklyn, Murray Hill, etc. will be replaced by newcomers interested in those scenes for a variety of reasons.

The landscape is getting more competitive.   The oldest millennial are hitting 40.   The single largest generation in our country is shifting from 20-somethings, primed to share a house with roommates and go out 4 nights a week to parents looking for a backyard and good schools.  There may not be enough in Gen Z to make up for that loss.

It's not as clear cut as that. Not everyone is looking for cheap tract housing 30 miles away. By the same token, some of the best schools in the region are in Duval. It will be interesting to see the results of the 2020 census to see if these neighborhoods are declining in population or growing. As acme54321 said different strokes for different folks.
"A man who views the world the same at 50 as he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life.” - Muhammad Ali

Florida Power And Light

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Epic LOL at this:

Quote

Imagine historic San Marco Square – but larger – dropped into a signature Southside property.

...

“We superimposed the San Marco retail district to get that feel and we tweaked it to fit our project,” Fuqua said Frida



So it's like San Marco Square, just surrounded by surface parking instead of a neighborhood?

Clay County Citizen "Vision" exercises,deciding on what would become of undeveloped lands/ OAK LEAF suggested,inclined towards neighborhoods "Just Like Avondale".
Tiny homesites further west sprawl....Bingo!!