Author Topic: What do you think about Autonomous/Connected Vehicles?  (Read 2074 times)

KenFSU

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Re: What do you think about Autonomous/Connected Vehicles?
« Reply #30 on: February 01, 2019, 01:59:21 PM »
I've got no issue with Autonomous vehicles, and they're coming in the next 5-10 years regardless. I welcome them, personally. That said, I think it's a giant losing effort for the JTA to deprioritize fixed public transit - something they offer an actual competitive advantage at versus the private market - and instead compete with the private market on automated ride share.

JTA will never have the economies of scale that tomorrow's AV megacorps will have.

Why set yourself up to be in a position ten years from now where Uber or Tesla or Apple or whoever has thousands of private autonomous vehicles on the highways of Jacksonville offering $1 personal rides, and you've got 50 plodding robovans creaking down the streets at 30 mph giving subsidized $4 rides, still operating at a loss, with no guarantees that you're not going to be spending 10 minutes shoulder-to-shoulder with a drug dealer in an otherwise empty clown car (side question: how do prevent said drug dealer from just hopping into the clown car in the absence of turnstiles?).

It's stupid, and a recipe for failure.

As is JTA's entire future city-wide transportation network, minus less than two miles of elevated Skyway track, being designed to operate in mixed traffic and add more congestion to the streets.

This is a long-term transportation solution?

The whole thing to me seems like someone at JTA was starting with a conclusion ("We should incorporte snazzy automated vehicles into our transportation plans!") rather than a fundamental question ("how can transportation make Jacksonville a more vibrant, inclusive community over the next 50 years?").

I also don't love the idea that we've gotten the entire downtown community accustomed to free public transport, including the less fortunate, and we're going to replace it with a system that seems to be catered to the better to-dos. You shouldn't need a smartphone and an online bank account to ride public transport.

Finally, to Bill's point, this thing is nowhere near ready for primetime. Meanwhile, we've got a new Regional Transportation Center opening by next year, and a $100 million BRT-lite system that will route through it. JTA is about to tear out the middle beam between the JRTC and Jefferson Station and turn it into a second test track for AV. What's going to happen next year when all three (potentially four) BRT lines are dropping off at the transportation center, and the only means we have to transport busloads full of people into the core is to have them board experimental clown cars and ride half a mile to a useable station. Doesn't make sense, it's significantly worse than we've currently got with Rosa Parks, and it's going to gimp the JRTC from day one.

And don't even get me started on how fun it's going to be for the entire system to be shut down and downtown transit to come to a screeching halt for a month for an investigation the first time a drunk, mentally disturbed person steps in front of one of the robo vans.

Love the idea of having automated vehicles feeding riders from neighborhoods into a First Coast Flyer and a true fixed Skyway system. It's a good first-mile/last-mile solution. The speed and capacity limitations aren't as much of a handicap in a neighborhood setting.

Hate the idea of the automated vehicles being the system in itself.



« Last Edit: February 01, 2019, 02:04:47 PM by KenFSU »

jaxlongtimer

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Re: What do you think about Autonomous/Connected Vehicles?
« Reply #31 on: February 01, 2019, 06:29:39 PM »
Based on how inaccurate these consultant type reports have been in the past, I wouldn't waste my time or dollars acting on them based on their conclusions.  These reports are designed to support forgone conclusions/decisions by the people (JTA) who pay for the reports.  It was reports like this that "supported" building the Skyway to begin with and they were not even close in traffic projections, costs and impacts on the City.

Quote
3. The capital cost is shown as $62.9 Million over the 30 year project life.

Wow.  We are going to lock in this system for another 30 years?  Who really believes this system will stand the test of time?  Are we not learning from our mistake doing the same for the Skyway?  Another "demonstration" project likely to fail and we have to subsidize it for decades regardless?  "Stupid is as stupid does."   

bl8jaxnative

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Re: What do you think about Autonomous/Connected Vehicles?
« Reply #32 on: February 02, 2019, 03:42:41 PM »
Autonomous vehicles are coming one way or another.


That's not true. As of today they don't exist.  Robocars are not a given.

There's a lot of excitement that they could.  But history is full of technologies that "experts" claimed was only 5 years away.  40 years later, those techs are still 5 years later.

Think about it.  We were promised jet packs.

bl8jaxnative

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Re: What do you think about Autonomous/Connected Vehicles?
« Reply #33 on: February 02, 2019, 03:49:59 PM »
What's going to happen next year when all three (potentially four) BRT lines are dropping off at the transportation center, and the only means we have to transport busloads full of people into the core is to have them board experimental clown cars and ride half a mile to a useable station. Doesn't make sense, it's significantly worse than we've currently got with Rosa Parks, and it's going to gimp the JRTC from day one.

It makes perfect sense if one recognizes that transit is something people want for some else, just not themselves.


And don't even get me started on how fun it's going to be for the entire system to be shut down and downtown transit to come to a screeching halt for a month for an investigation the first time a drunk, mentally disturbed person steps in front of one of the robo vans.

It won't even take that.  Some bored teenagers roaming downtown will be able to seek out these robo-Jitney just to mess with them.



Love the idea of having automated vehicles feeding riders from neighborhoods into a First Coast Flyer and a true fixed Skyway system. It's a good first-mile/last-mile solution. The speed and capacity limitations aren't as much of a handicap in a neighborhood setting.

Hate the idea of the automated vehicles being the system in itself.

This is the sort of thing that makes it worth popping in around here every now and then.  I wouldn't have thought of it like that at all.   The tech, if it can work, is really about being a small neighborhood calculator.  At least that's how you're seeing it, correct?

marcuscnelson

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Re: What do you think about Autonomous/Connected Vehicles?
« Reply #34 on: February 02, 2019, 07:15:04 PM »
This is the sort of thing that makes it worth popping in around here every now and then.  I wouldn't have thought of it like that at all.   The tech, if it can work, is really about being a small neighborhood calculator.  At least that's how you're seeing it, correct?


I remember someone (heck, maybe it was Ken) talking about that months ago. The U2C vehicles as proposed are an excellent solution to first/last mile, getting people from the curb to the actual transit system, but it doesn't have the capacity or even the general characteristics to serve as the actual transit system.

thelakelander

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Re: What do you think about Autonomous/Connected Vehicles?
« Reply #35 on: February 02, 2019, 08:06:59 PM »
^Yeah, that's probably the biggest challenge with the U2C. It's highly risky and questionable to attempt to make these things serve as the actual transit system. On the other hand, AV shuttles as first/last mile options have merit although Lyft and Uber provide that service now.
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KenFSU

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Re: What do you think about Autonomous/Connected Vehicles?
« Reply #36 on: February 02, 2019, 09:28:39 PM »
On the other hand, AV shuttles as first/last mile options have merit although Lyft and Uber provide that service now.

As does JTA apparently, even though I've yet to encounter one person who uses it, or even knows it exists.

Operates within five zones, and the fare is only 50 cents if you're using the service to transfer to a First Coast Flyer or JTA Bus Stop.

https://www.jtafla.com/schedules/readiride/

KenFSU

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Re: What do you think about Autonomous/Connected Vehicles?
« Reply #37 on: February 02, 2019, 09:57:16 PM »
Quote from: bl8jaxnative
The tech, if it can work, is really about being a small neighborhood calculator.  At least that's how you're seeing it, correct?

Certainly seems more logical to deploy a slower, more flexible, lower capacity solution in neighborhood settings with less predictable routes that can feed into a larger mass transit system, rather than buying 15 highly flexible robovans but essentially having them drive slowly up and down Bay Street in one fixed loop in mixed traffic.

Having a few robovans circulating the beach neighborhoods each morning, or Riverside, or Avondale, or wherever, feeding into the First Coast Flyer or Skyway, or linking the First Coast Flyer to areas it doesn't hit like UNF/Town Center seems like a more logical use of the technology.

I'd love to know who the target rider is for the Skyway clown cars, and what specific problem JTA thinks they can solve with this solution vs. faster, higher capacity, fixed transit in and around downtown.

I really don't even know what the point is in extending the route into the sports complex if the entire system only has the capacity to move maybe 200 people an hour on gamedays, if that. Why even bother if three or four rusty old school buses would be twice as efficient as a street full of sensors and hundreds of drunks fighting with a goofy app trying to hail a clown car (and figure out which one is theirs) just to get back to the Omni or Hyatt a mile down the ride.
« Last Edit: February 02, 2019, 10:09:53 PM by KenFSU »

jcjohnpaint

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Re: What do you think about Autonomous/Connected Vehicles?
« Reply #38 on: February 03, 2019, 11:49:11 AM »
Took the survey and it really seemed to ask about what I think about the technology instead of the system.  I don’t know why it is important what anyone thinks about a technology that will come if we like it or not.  The system they are proposing is where the problem is.  These are just self driving Uber cars.