Author Topic: Lost Jacksonville: Streetcars  (Read 2773 times)

bl8jaxnative

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Re: Lost Jacksonville: Streetcars
« Reply #15 on: January 26, 2019, 02:08:36 PM »
Charles Mahron repeatedly claims that the current development scheme is a ponzi scheme.  Extraordinary claims require extraordinary to  evidence.   To date, he has not done this.

That's all I'm saying..  Show me the money. 

Ocklawaha

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Re: Lost Jacksonville: Streetcars
« Reply #16 on: January 27, 2019, 09:21:25 PM »
Quote
Project costs for recent U.S. streetcar systems have varied from approximately $27.8 million/mile (S Line, Salt Lake City, 2013) to $54.5 million/mile (QLine, Detroit, May 2017). According to 2015 data (most recent available) from the Federal Transit Administration (FTA), the operational cost of streetcar systems is $1.41 per passenger mile (compared to $1.09 for buses and $0.75 for LRT). However, among these modes, streetcars cover a higher percent of costs via farebox (31.8% compared to 25.7% for buses and 27.9% for LRT). Ongoing operations and maintenance (O&M) costs can also vary from system to system. For example, Detroit’s 3.3-mile QLine estimates annual O&M costs approximately $6 million, Cincinnati 3.6-mile Bell Connector estimates O&M at $4.2 million, and Salt Lake City’s 2.0-mile S-Line estimates annual O&M at $1.5 million.

How often does that ‘cheap’ bus engine work? On leaving from a stop? Cruising? Streetcars with virtually no comparable rolling resistance actually only engage their motors in very short spurts, spending perhaps 75% of their time in a flat location like Florida COASTING!

bl8jaxnative

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Re: Lost Jacksonville: Streetcars
« Reply #17 on: January 29, 2019, 02:51:43 PM »
???

You do realize that trolley's make just as many stops as buses, right?   If the issue is operational efficiency, establish less stops and dedicated lanes.

Buses also have thrice the amount of seating as trams.  Trams are just a roving skateboard on wheels with a roof.   If you're getting on and off handy but if you have any distance to go, not fun.   

And of course, if you're not going far, $100k spent on a fleet of eScooters and eBikes would serve just as well as a $10million on a trolley.

Ocklawaha

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Re: Lost Jacksonville: Streetcars
« Reply #18 on: February 01, 2019, 05:49:58 PM »
???

You do realize that trolley's make just as many stops as buses, right?   If the issue is operational efficiency, establish less stops and dedicated lanes.

Dedicated lanes work for any transit mode, in our case we have the former F&J right-of-way straight north from Maxwell House to King Edward to Gateway Plaza with links directly to North Main above the Trout River. We also have the former 'S Line' running west to Moncrief hence south to the Prime Osborn Station Location. Consider that with Virgin Trains + Amtrak meeting at a privatized Prime Osborn Station and Mixed use project fed by the RAPID STREETCAR (IE: little to no street running) and you've got an easy winner.

Quote
Buses also have thrice the amount of seating as trams.  Trams are just a roving skateboard on wheels with a roof.   If you're getting on and off handy but if you have any distance to go, not fun.



https://www.skoda.cz/en/references/tramcar-forcity-plus-bratislava/?from=prod

In what world do buses have thrice the amount of seating/passenger load as trams/streetcars? Not even close...
The new Skoda Trams have a capacity of 356 passengers.
The new Citadis Trams have a load factor of between 220 to 500 passengers each trip.
The home grown Liberty Streetcar by Brookville can handle 181 Standees + 47 Seated + 1 Operator = 229
Maximum load for an articulated (jointed bus) stands at about 200 passengers. Keep in mind this is PER DRIVER so since streetcars can operate entrain, you could couple 3 356 passenger streetcars into a tram-train with a single operator. 75% of your cost is in employee pay and benefits.
Life span of the bus, per FTA? 12 years or 500K miles, Lifespan of the tram?

Quote
And of course, if you're not going far, $100k spent on a fleet of eScooters and eBikes would serve just as well as a $10million on a trolley.

According to the most up to date research available online, a new Brooklyn Streetcar would incur LESS THAN One-Half (39% – 44%) the operating costs of a NYC Transit Bus. According to the following research, the 2008 operating costs of a new Brooklyn Streetcar would be on average between $48.79/hr and $60.02/hr per streetcar*. The latter figure corresponds perfectly with the circa 2007 hourly operating cost of $59.40/hr per streetcar, on the newly built (2004) Little Rock, AR line.According to the most up to date research available online, a new Brooklyn Streetcar would incur LESS THAN One-Half (39% – 44%) the operating costs of a NYC Transit Bus. According to the following research, the 2008 operating costs of a new Brooklyn Streetcar would be on average between $48.79/hr and $60.02/hr per streetcar*. The latter figure corresponds perfectly with the circa 2007 hourly operating cost of $59.40/hr per streetcar, on the newly built (2004) Little Rock, AR line.

« Last Edit: February 01, 2019, 09:28:09 PM by Ocklawaha »

Ocklawaha

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Re: Lost Jacksonville: Streetcars
« Reply #19 on: February 01, 2019, 06:06:08 PM »
Let's add that streetcars have much faster acceleration and better/stronger braking, in addition to higher capacity. Figure in 40-45 MPH on exclusive right-of-way and we'd blow the socks off the U2C... But is anyone in Jacksonville paying attention to the facts or are they star struck on yet another pie-in-the-sky scheme.

Here are some numbers from NYC:

METHODOLOGY:

I found the circa 2008 NYC Transit Bus Operator application online here:

http://www.nyc.gov/html/dcas/downloads/pdf/noes/200808006000.pdf
A NYC bus operator starts at $18.84/hr, and rises in increments after 3 years to $26.92/hr for a 40 hour week. However, this figure does not reflect benefits. So, let's add 66% to the numbers for the actual labor cost, including benefits, as per the 2010 Public Transportation Fact Book, by APTA, pg 21, Table 18:

Bus Operator hourly pay + benefits (66% / hr) = Total labor cost per hour
For vehicle operator starting pay scale, we get a total hourly labor cost of: $18.84/hr + $12.43/hr = $31.27/hr.
For vehicle operator pay scale after three years, we get a total hourly labor cost of: $26.92/hr + $17.77/hr = $44.69/hr
As per SEPTA (Philadelphia Transit Authority) circa 2001 streetcar operating cost breakdown, updated with 2010 data, “Labor” accounts for 77% of the total operating cost of $47.05/hr. "Everything Else" accounts for 23%, or $10.81/hr. Now, lets add $10.81/hr to the actual hourly labor cost for "Power and Everything Else":
   
Total hourly operating cost per Streetcar, w/a newly appointed operator: $31.27/hr + $10.81/hr = $42.08/hr.
Total hourly operating cost per Streetcar w/an operator having 3 years of service: $44.69/hr + $10.81/hr = $55.50/hr.
A noteworthy point, is that the actual current (2008) SEPTA (Philadelphia) streetcar hourly operating cost of $47.05/hr, is almost the exact average of the projected Brooklyn streetcar hourly operating cost, which is ($42.08 + $55.50) / 2 = $48.79/hr.
The current circa 2008, Philadelphia streetcar (Subway-Surface) operating cost of $47.05/hr can be viewed here on page 58: http://www.septa.org/reports/pdf/asp10.pdf

As for the circa 2000 NYC Transit Bus operating cost data, the following is the Manhattan Institute For Policy Research Bus Operating Cost Table, circa 2002, created by:

E. S. Savas
Professor, School of Public Affairs, Baruch College
E. J. McMahonE. J. McMahon
Senior Fellow, The Manhattan Institute for Policy Research
http://www.manhattan-institute.org/html/cr_30t2.htm http://www.manhattan-institute.org/html/cr_30.htm
As we can see in the first row, the circa 2000 operating cost of a NYC Transit Bus, was $90.74/hr.

jaxjags

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Re: Lost Jacksonville: Streetcars
« Reply #20 on: February 01, 2019, 06:09:47 PM »
Was skiing with some people from the ATL today. Their comment was "where ever the Belt Line goes, infill development follows quickly". Lakelander, I rest your case.

bl8jaxnative

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Re: Lost Jacksonville: Streetcars
« Reply #21 on: February 02, 2019, 03:51:54 PM »
Let's add that streetcars have much faster acceleration and better/stronger braking, in addition to higher capacity.

Put down the glue.  It's for crafting, not huffing.