Author Topic: Google's Leaked Election Aftermath Video  (Read 7193 times)

I-10east

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Re: Google's Leaked Election Aftermath Video
« Reply #30 on: September 18, 2018, 07:18:56 PM »
The US is a democracy (as well as a constitutional republic). The terms aren't mutually-exclusive.

If the US was a democracy, Hillary Clinton would be pres. The highest amount of votes gets the presidency, versus having the electoral college. Right now on wiki (everyone's favorite trustworthy site) the US is listed as a "federal republic" but used to be listed as a "constitutional republic" not long ago; I'm not sure if there's any difference between the two.

Adam White

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Re: Google's Leaked Election Aftermath Video
« Reply #31 on: September 19, 2018, 02:28:05 AM »
The US is a democracy (as well as a constitutional republic). The terms aren't mutually-exclusive.

If the US was a democracy, Hillary Clinton would be pres. The highest amount of votes gets the presidency, versus having the electoral college. Right now on wiki (everyone's favorite trustworthy site) the US is listed as a "federal republic" but used to be listed as a "constitutional republic" not long ago; I'm not sure if there's any difference between the two.

The USA is a democracy and a republic. It's a representative democracy (it's far too large to be a direct democracy, though it has elements of that - like referendums, for example). The example you use is an example of democracy in action - people vote for the electors who vote for the President.

The 'republic' bit means that the head of state isn't a king or whatever. The UK is an example of a democracy that is not a republic.

As I stated before, the two terms are not mutually-exclusive.
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Gunnar

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Re: Google's Leaked Election Aftermath Video
« Reply #32 on: September 19, 2018, 07:56:59 AM »
How do you vote, if you don't mind my asking? I am only so familiar with German politics and assume I'd vote Die Linke if I had to choose. But, like a lot of left wing parties, it has a lot of unsavoury elements in it. I see the SPD as much like our Labour Party - they abandoned true social democracy in the 90s and embraced Clintonite 'third way' politics.

Die Linke is out of the question for me as they are the successor to the party that ruled communist East Germany, the SED. They have too much blood on their hands and for me they never faced up to their past.

Also, those people ruled a country for over 40 years and we saw what became of that.

Personally, I tend towards labor but see myself in their conservative wing (conservative being a relative term here). With the way the party has gone in the last years, I do not think I will vote at all in the next federal elections.

Really, watching Bill Maher I can identify with his view points - he's no fan of Republicans but at the same time is disgusted of what has become of the side he sees himself belonging to / sees them as idiots.

This quote sums it up pretty nicely:

Quote
“Democrats have gone from the party that protects people to the party that protects feelings. From, ‘Ask not what your country can do for you,’ to, ‘You owe me an apology,'”


The problem with the USA (and the UK, amongst others) is that first-past-the-post voting has led to a system where there are only two parties, which means they have to basically barely stand for anything in order to have a chance at winning. And they just reinvent themselves when in opposition to be whatever the party in power isn't. And then when they are in power, they abandon any principles they pretended to have in order to get elected.

Both major parties have lost so many voters in Germany that they are no longer in a position to govern together with a smaller party but rather needed to govern in a coalition with each other. As they are losing their identity, they are also losing voters to fringe parties. I think labor is now below 20%, the Conservatives are dipping below 30%.

I think this is happening across many countries - saw this in Sweden were neither the left nor the conservative blocks (that consist of several parties each) could govern.
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Gunnar

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Re: Google's Leaked Election Aftermath Video
« Reply #33 on: September 19, 2018, 08:03:19 AM »
The US is a democracy (as well as a constitutional republic). The terms aren't mutually-exclusive.

If the US was a democracy, Hillary Clinton would be pres. The highest amount of votes gets the presidency, versus having the electoral college. Right now on wiki (everyone's favorite trustworthy site) the US is listed as a "federal republic" but used to be listed as a "constitutional republic" not long ago; I'm not sure if there's any difference between the two.

Not necessarily - it really depends on the voting system. If you look at the UK, the party that scores the majority in a district gets the seat in parliament, so it may well be possible that a party who gets 49.9% of votes does not have a single seat in the lower house (Adam will probably know this better).

As for the US, historically the system was set-up to find a balance between majority rule (i.e. pure popular vote) and maintaining the influence of smaller states / prevent them from becoming disenfranchised, which is where the Connecticut Compromise originated.

While I find the electoral college to be outdated, I personally have no issue with not having a pure popular vote system.
I want to live in a society where people can voice unpopular opinions because I know that as a result of that, a society grows and matures...” — Hugh Hefner

Adam White

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Re: Google's Leaked Election Aftermath Video
« Reply #34 on: September 19, 2018, 08:08:15 AM »
How do you vote, if you don't mind my asking? I am only so familiar with German politics and assume I'd vote Die Linke if I had to choose. But, like a lot of left wing parties, it has a lot of unsavoury elements in it. I see the SPD as much like our Labour Party - they abandoned true social democracy in the 90s and embraced Clintonite 'third way' politics.

Die Linke is out of the question for me as they are the successor to the party that ruled communist East Germany, the SED. They have too much blood on their hands and for me they never faced up to their past.

Also, those people ruled a country for over 40 years and we saw what became of that.

Personally, I tend towards labor but see myself in their conservative wing (conservative being a relative term here). With the way the party has gone in the last years, I do not think I will vote at all in the next federal elections.

Really, watching Bill Maher I can identify with his view points - he's no fan of Republicans but at the same time is disgusted of what has become of the side he sees himself belonging to / sees them as idiots.

This quote sums it up pretty nicely:

Quote
“Democrats have gone from the party that protects people to the party that protects feelings. From, ‘Ask not what your country can do for you,’ to, ‘You owe me an apology,'”


The problem with the USA (and the UK, amongst others) is that first-past-the-post voting has led to a system where there are only two parties, which means they have to basically barely stand for anything in order to have a chance at winning. And they just reinvent themselves when in opposition to be whatever the party in power isn't. And then when they are in power, they abandon any principles they pretended to have in order to get elected.

Both major parties have lost so many voters in Germany that they are no longer in a position to govern together with a smaller party but rather needed to govern in a coalition with each other. As they are losing their identity, they are also losing voters to fringe parties. I think labor is now below 20%, the Conservatives are dipping below 30%.

I think this is happening across many countries - saw this in Sweden were neither the left nor the conservative blocks (that consist of several parties each) could govern.

Aren't Die Linke made up of the successor to the SED and other parties as well? I thought they weren't solely the Stasi guys.

When you say "Labor" do you mean the SPD? I am only so familiar with the German parties, of course.
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I-10east

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Re: Google's Leaked Election Aftermath Video
« Reply #35 on: September 19, 2018, 09:14:39 AM »
I still think that the US is not a democracy (it's not listed on wiki, the dictionary etc for a reason). The forefathers even warned about not having a direct democracy (which is basically mob rule).

I get why many on the left wants to get rid of the electoral college, because demographics (esp with having a porous Southern border) is on your side. The problem with getting rid of the electoral college is that most of the county (state wise not population) will be alienated; like a California situation, the entire state is ran by San Fran and LA.

Kinda similar economic wise, the entire country is doing pretty damn well right now (and ascending) versus the last administration where the coastal areas did okay for the most part, but the middle of the country suffered badly. Now we have a plant being reinvested in Gary Indiana for godsakes.

   
« Last Edit: September 19, 2018, 09:29:17 AM by I-10east »

Gunnar

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Re: Google's Leaked Election Aftermath Video
« Reply #36 on: September 19, 2018, 09:57:35 AM »
Aren't Die Linke made up of the successor to the SED and other parties as well? I thought they weren't solely the Stasi guys.

When you say "Labor" do you mean the SPD? I am only so familiar with the German parties, of course.

Well, Die Linke (= "The Left") would like everyone to believe that they are the successor to a bunch of parties and leftist movements.
Historically, you had the SED (Socialist Unity Party of Germany - all others were forced to merge with them), which was renamed to "PDS" (Party of democratic socialism) after the fall of the East German dictatorship and which then turned into "Die Linke" by absorbing the former West German Communist party and movements. 

As for Labor, yes, I mean the SPD. Figured it would be easier for other posters to follow.
I want to live in a society where people can voice unpopular opinions because I know that as a result of that, a society grows and matures...” — Hugh Hefner

Gunnar

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Re: Google's Leaked Election Aftermath Video
« Reply #37 on: September 19, 2018, 10:03:29 AM »
I get why many on the left wants to get rid of the electoral college, because demographics (esp with having a porous Southern border) is on your side. The problem with getting rid of the electoral college is that most of the county (state wise not population) will be alienated; like a California situation, the entire state is ran by San Fran and LA.

Personally, I do not suggest you do away with the entire system, just replace the electoral college / electors with actual votes (so the outcome of the presidential election would automatically be the number of votes a candidate had received rather than determine electors who in theory could vote for whoever they wanted. The system itself would not change much.

I mean, it's not like they have to ride to DC on a horse fighting off wild animals any longer... this is one point where having an electoral college made sense.

I also feel that if you go just by the popular vote, this may not turn out that well for some of the smaller / less populous states that may end up being ignored.

All that said, since I am not a US citizen this is purely my personal opinion and not up to me in any way.
I want to live in a society where people can voice unpopular opinions because I know that as a result of that, a society grows and matures...” — Hugh Hefner

Adam White

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Re: Google's Leaked Election Aftermath Video
« Reply #38 on: September 19, 2018, 10:25:05 AM »
I still think that the US is not a democracy (it's not listed on wiki, the dictionary etc for a reason). The forefathers even warned about not having a direct democracy (which is basically mob rule).


If you're going to rely on Wikipedia (which I don't object to), why not explore their article on democracies, republics and presidential republics:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy#Types_of_governmental_democracies

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Presidential_system

Quote
In American English, the definition of a republic refers specifically to a form of government in which elected individuals represent the citizen body[2] and exercise power according to the rule of law under a constitution, including separation of powers with an elected head of state, referred to as a constitutional republic[4][5][6][7] or representative democracy.[8]

Quote
A presidential system is a democratic and republican system of government where a head of government leads an executive branch that is separate from the legislative branch. This head of government is in most cases also the head of state, which is called president.

The USA is a democracy. This is beyond dispute. It is true that the USA is not a direct democracy, though as I mentioned before, it does retain aspects of this.

It is specious to limit the definition of the word "democracy" to direct democracy and no one would seriously do that.

I can see your argument about the Electoral College, though I am not entirely certain I agree. I think it would be preferable for the President to be elected by direct popular vote. However, I think a reasonable compromise (which would be fairer whilst still retaining the benefits of the EC) would be to split the awarding of electors between the candidates based on their performance in each state. (For example, Florida's 29 electors could've been split 15 to Trump and 14 to Clinton).
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JeffreyS

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Re: Google's Leaked Election Aftermath Video
« Reply #39 on: September 19, 2018, 10:31:02 AM »
I still think that the US is not a democracy (it's not listed on wiki, the dictionary etc for a reason). The forefathers even warned about not having a direct democracy (which is basically mob rule).
It is a representative democracy.  Our founders tried to balance lots of factors and created to electoral college for the Senate and then years later applied it to the Presidency because it was about as close as they could come to collecting the votes of the people with the technology available in the early 1800s.  It was also less democratic back then because fewer people could legally vote.


Quote
get why many on the left wants to get rid of the electoral college, because demographics (esp with having a porous Southern border) is on your side. The problem with getting rid of the electoral college is that most of the county (state wise not population) will be alienated; like a California situation, the entire state is ran by San Fran and LA.

No doubt some just want whatever system gets their guy elected.  Many however view the system as slightly broken when one party constantly for decades gets more votes at the federal level and yet does not have the majority in the House, Senate, Administration or Judiciary appointments. The thing that bothers me is when I ask people who support the EC "How much should vote be skewed based on survey lines?" or even "what is the rationale for the current level it is skewed?" and you can tell they have never spent a moment looking into how much or little it is skewed or how much it should be.  At that point you know they just support the system now because it is a political advantage as opposed to some thoughtful method to represent as closely as it can the various people of this country.

Full disclosure I support

Two Senators (map vote) for each state for regional balance,

1 congressman for each state and 400 congressmen divided evenly(as close as you can given state lines) amongst the population. This would more favor population centers than the current system.

Popular vote (People vote) for the President. 



Lenny Smash

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Re: Google's Leaked Election Aftermath Video
« Reply #40 on: September 19, 2018, 11:05:27 AM »
  Many however view the system as slightly broken when one party constantly for decades gets more votes at the federal level and yet does not have the majority in the House, Senate, Administration or Judiciary appointments.


Was the system working for most of the last century and became "slightly broken" in 1995? :)

JeffreyS

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Re: Google's Leaked Election Aftermath Video
« Reply #41 on: September 19, 2018, 12:24:02 PM »
Yes , Although a better term than slightly broken would be less fair then we can achieve.  The system has become more and more skewed as population has grown and changed. We can now have the vote be more representative of our citizenry.
Lenny Smash

sanmarcomatt

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Re: Google's Leaked Election Aftermath Video
« Reply #42 on: September 19, 2018, 01:13:26 PM »
So when Democrats have the majority for decades upon decades, the system is fine. But when Republicans finally muster a majority for part of the last 25 years, the system is broken or less fair. But it is due to population changes...nothing to do with any political bias on your part.

I can buy that :)


JeffreyS

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Re: Google's Leaked Election Aftermath Video
« Reply #43 on: September 19, 2018, 04:11:08 PM »
I lead with the fact that political bias tends to play into this debate.  Were the elections running contrary to votes for that 100 years?  You know gas lamps were fine before electricity but there came a time where we could do better. However this may not be a debate we should have if you believe there is no honest conversation to be had.
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sanmarcomatt

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Re: Google's Leaked Election Aftermath Video
« Reply #44 on: September 19, 2018, 04:40:24 PM »
I lead with the fact that political bias tends to play into this debate.  Were the elections running contrary to votes for that 100 years?  You know gas lamps were fine before electricity but there came a time where we could do better. However this may not be a debate we should have if you believe there is no honest conversation to be had.

Lighten up Francis. Just having a little fun.
Very little, evidently.