Author Topic: Convention Center Wars  (Read 20495 times)

downtownbrown

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KenFSU

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Re: Convention Center Wars
« Reply #1 on: August 09, 2018, 10:48:05 AM »
Khan.

The Jags have too much leverage with the stadium lease expiring in 10 years and the existential London threat.

I think the Jags view the convention center as less a "nice to have" and more a necessity to feed into their Lot J/Shipyards projects, and Lamping will continue to double down on the passive aggressive "long-term sustainability of the franchise in Jacksonville" rhetoric to ratchet up the pressure.

No legacy-obsessed mayor is going to risk pushing out a beloved NFL team on their watch, and I don't see a universe where Curry says no to Shad Khan, even if building at the Courthouse site is better for the city.

The proposal says the Shipyards convention center would be open by 2021.

Can't see a universe where construction begins prior to 2021.

downtownbrown

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Re: Convention Center Wars
« Reply #2 on: August 09, 2018, 11:03:43 AM »
Yeah, I still see Khan's announcement of a convention center IF AND ONLY IF the ramps come down is all about the ramps, and not the convention center.  Removing the ramps gives Khan a blank slate.  The implied threat is pretty clear.

Dapperdan

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Re: Convention Center Wars
« Reply #3 on: August 09, 2018, 01:30:13 PM »
The convention center can be built with the ramps still up if they know the ramps will be down by 2021.

vicupstate

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Re: Convention Center Wars
« Reply #4 on: August 09, 2018, 02:34:06 PM »
The convention center can be built with the ramps still up if they know the ramps will be down by 2021.

Kind of like how the Landing was built with the promise of additional parking in the future?   
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vicupstate

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Re: Convention Center Wars
« Reply #5 on: August 10, 2018, 08:19:02 AM »
What is the possibility that the RPF is just a ruse to justify building according to Khan's wishes. If the proposals involve massive subsidies then it will give impetus to say 'for the same money we can build at the Stadium and also have more room to expand'.  Of course the Khan proposal would probably end up being as expensive or more, but since those numbers aren't specified yet, that argument might win out.

It would explain why the RPF was put out knowing full well that Khan had other plans. It would also allow Curry to be able to excuse not building at the courthouse. And of course the courthouse and annex will be demoed any day now, which might also be to Khan's liking for all we know.     
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KenFSU

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Re: Convention Center Wars
« Reply #6 on: August 10, 2018, 10:18:54 AM »
What is the possibility that the RPF is just a ruse to justify building according to Khan's wishes. If the proposals involve massive subsidies then it will give impetus to say 'for the same money we can build at the Stadium and also have more room to expand'.  Of course the Khan proposal would probably end up being as expensive or more, but since those numbers aren't specified yet, that argument might win out.

It would explain why the RPF was put out knowing full well that Khan had other plans. It would also allow Curry to be able to excuse not building at the courthouse. And of course the courthouse and annex will be demoed any day now, which might also be to Khan's liking for all we know.     

I'm always game for a good Curry conspiracy theory, but I definitely think the RFP is on the up-and-up.

The capital spending Curry allocated over the last couple years for the Coastline inlet/beautification and the courthouse/Annex demolition was setting the stage for a convention center on that site, and I know Curry's got a good enough relationship with the Hyatt folks that he wouldn't intentionally use them as a pawn if the RFP was a lark.

Plus, Khan's mentioned a convention center in the past, but he's never been super-committal about it.

If you'll remember, Khan's first two sets of plans for the Shipyards included hotels with meeting/expo space, but nothing on the scale of a proper convention center.

It wasn't until the city announced the RFP for the courthouse site in January that Khan's team started to feel some urgency about the idea. I thought they'd actually bid for the courthouse site, but the Hyatt's right of first refusal might have scared them off.

It was at this point that they added a proper convention center to the tenth set of Shipyards renders they released at the State of the Franchise in May.

And it wasn't until the RFP was issued that the Jaguars came back with a specific proposal for the Shipyards site, exactly matching what the city and DIA included in the RFP for the courthouse site.

I know for the fact that the mayor's office was blindsided by the Iguana proposal as well.

For the convention center, it seems more likely that the Jags are trying to pull Curry's strings than actively colluding with him.

jaxnyc79

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Re: Convention Center Wars
« Reply #7 on: August 10, 2018, 10:46:04 AM »
What is the possibility that the RPF is just a ruse to justify building according to Khan's wishes. If the proposals involve massive subsidies then it will give impetus to say 'for the same money we can build at the Stadium and also have more room to expand'.  Of course the Khan proposal would probably end up being as expensive or more, but since those numbers aren't specified yet, that argument might win out.

It would explain why the RPF was put out knowing full well that Khan had other plans. It would also allow Curry to be able to excuse not building at the courthouse. And of course the courthouse and annex will be demoed any day now, which might also be to Khan's liking for all we know.     

I'm always game for a good Curry conspiracy theory, but I definitely think the RFP is on the up-and-up.

The capital spending Curry allocated over the last couple years for the Coastline inlet/beautification and the courthouse/Annex demolition was setting the stage for a convention center on that site, and I know Curry's got a good enough relationship with the Hyatt folks that he wouldn't intentionally use them as a pawn if the RFP was a lark.

Plus, Khan's mentioned a convention center in the past, but he's never been super-committal about it.

If you'll remember, Khan's first two sets of plans for the Shipyards included hotels with meeting/expo space, but nothing on the scale of a proper convention center.

It wasn't until the city announced the RFP for the courthouse site in January that Khan's team started to feel some urgency about the idea. I thought they'd actually bid for the courthouse site, but the Hyatt's right of first refusal might have scared them off.

It was at this point that they added a proper convention center to the tenth set of Shipyards renders they released at the State of the Franchise in May.

And it wasn't until the RFP was issued that the Jaguars came back with a specific proposal for the Shipyards site, exactly matching what the city and DIA included in the RFP for the courthouse site.

I know for the fact that the mayor's office was blindsided by the Iguana proposal as well.

For the convention center, it seems more likely that the Jags are trying to pull Curry's strings than actively colluding with him.

Hasn't the city assigned development rights for the Shipyards to Iguana already?  Consequently, the city can't issue an RFP on the Shipyards for anything, including a center, correct?  Only Iguana can do anything with that property.  Curry probably knew Iguana would propose a Center on the Shipyards to complement its Cordish development, but wanted to get a fuller sense of the developmental demand by also soliciting bids on the Courthouse site.  Now it will just be a matter of comparing both sets of proposals.  For all we know, the courthouse proposals might blow Iguana's ideas out of the water.  If not, well, there's a willing party down the street.

downtownbrown

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Re: Convention Center Wars
« Reply #8 on: August 10, 2018, 01:00:53 PM »
I think Ken is right.  Khan is leveraging Curry to take down the ramps.  I'd bet a nickel that if Curry said to Khan today, "I have the money and materials to take down the ramp immediately," Khan's convention center would turn back into a Four Seasons.  Khan is basically saying, "Don't spend money at the courthouse until you remove those damned ramps".

vicupstate

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Re: Convention Center Wars
« Reply #9 on: August 10, 2018, 01:14:34 PM »
I think Ken is right.  Khan is leveraging Curry to take down the ramps.  I'd bet a nickel that if Curry said to Khan today, "I have the money and materials to take down the ramp immediately," Khan's convention center would turn back into a Four Seasons.  Khan is basically saying, "Don't spend money at the courthouse until you remove those damned ramps".

Well they are spending $8mm for the demo and that will definitely be spent long before anything happens with Shipyards or the ramps.

Given that a courthouse CC and hotel would be in direct competition with Shipyards, i have a hard time believing Khan would drop having the CC in his project. 
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KenFSU

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Re: Convention Center Wars
« Reply #10 on: August 10, 2018, 02:35:07 PM »
The proposal says the Shipyards convention center would be open by 2021.

Can't see a universe where construction begins prior to 2021.

The convention center can be built with the ramps still up if they know the ramps will be down by 2021.

Even if the ramps were gone tomorrow and the city and Iguana agreed to all terms overnight, I don't see construction prior to 2021.

Based on the study we commissioned in 2015, the property where Khan is proposing to build the convention center is contaminated to the point where it can't be used for commercial purposes. The entire property is saturated with lead, arsenic, mercury, and even toxic remnants from the Great Fire of 1901. We still don't know the full extent of the contamination, or how much it will cost to clean up.

And though we've done almost no environmental study on the adjacent Kids Campus property where the hotel, ballroom, and restaurant/retail would be located, we're pretty confident there will be contamination issues with that site too.

Before any construction could begin, we'd need to choose the Shipyards site, conduct further environmental research, figure out how we're going to approach remediation (piecemeal'ing the convention center/hotel site vs. full Shipyards remediation), RFP the cleanup, decontaminate the site, and get a clean environmental bill-of-health (which, for context, was a two-year, $2 million process for the District property).

I just don't see how they've got construction underway anytime before mid-2021 at the earliest.

thelakelander

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Re: Convention Center Wars
« Reply #11 on: August 10, 2018, 06:05:15 PM »


Kids Kampus (and probably Lot J as well) is a part of the old St. Johns River Shipbuilding Company site. If the Jax Shipyards site is contaminated, I would not doubt that the site just east of it is as well.
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KenFSU

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Re: Convention Center Wars
« Reply #12 on: August 11, 2018, 10:21:55 AM »
Sounds like the Jags will be dangling the NFL Draft/Super Bowl carrot when it comes to their developments at the sports complex.

https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/article/jaguars-advocating-for-other-downtown-projects

Keith-N-Jax

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Re: Convention Center Wars
« Reply #13 on: August 11, 2018, 12:16:20 PM »
^^ It's a WIN WIN IMO, if only we could get the city to work the Landing as well.

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Re: Convention Center Wars
« Reply #14 on: August 11, 2018, 05:01:12 PM »
"There's not enough to do downtown." WOW! I guess Jax had better get on the "good foot" as they used to say and quit dawdling.
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