JTA & TPO Propose $63 million "Innovation Corridor" Downtown

[KenFSU]

To run from the new Regional Transportation Center to TIAA Bank Field:

https://www.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/news/2018/08/08/exclusive-a-63-million-innovation-corridor-could.html

[Captain Zissou]

Yeah lets totally do this rather than fix current road conditions and enhance pedestrian amenities.

[Tacachale]

Some quick thoughts:

What is the innovation corridor?

The innovation corridor is meant to be a proof of concept for two current initiatives: JTA's Ultimate Urban Circulator (U2C) and the TPO's Integrated Data Exchange. The U2C is the future of Jacksonville's aging Skyway. It will deploy a fleet of autonomous vehicles that will descend from the Skyway's 2.5-mile elevated infrastructure via off-ramps onto surface streets throughout downtown and surrounding neighborhoods, expanding the people-mover system into a 10-mile network.

Where is it going?

The corridor runs along Bay Street from the Jacksonville Regional Transportation Center to TIAA Bank Field. JTA CEO Nat Ford previously told the Business Journal that the U2C will support a barbell-like downtown. The JRTC will anchor one end by funneling bus rapid transit, fixed route buses, intercity buses and commuter rail into downtown and TIAA Bank Field, Daily's Place Amphitheater, the future Shipyards development project and other entertainment options will anchor the other end. The U2C, along with bikeshares and rideshares, will move people within the downtown to the apartments, campuses, retailers and restaurants in between.

The JTA portion of this sounds unfeasible. This track implies ripping out the current Skyway entirely, plus adding another mile+ on the street. That's going to cost a lot more than the $13.9 million that this article show them receiving (and that money is split by both JTA and JEA).

Then there's the matter that the technology isn't here yet to do what they're wanting it to do. When we were writing our articles on the Skyway proposals, Ennis shared a report from an AV company that says we're still 15 years away from implementation. At best, this will serve as a testing route for an unproven technology that's already being tested in cities like Atlanta, Ann Arbor and Las Vegas. The problem gets worse if the vehicles are mixing in traffic instead of having their own dedicated lanes (which is necessary for a working transit system). We're even farther away from having robot buses that can handle traffic.

The proposed Bay Street route also totally conflicts with the COJ's plans for the same corridor. Again, no right dedicated lanes, no proposed places for new stations.

And all that's contingent on them actually getting this money. If they don't, we're pushed back another few years on seeing anything happen with the Skyway.

I'm sure Ennis will be weighing in soon with even more commentary!

[thelakelander]

I have nothing much to say on this one. 2,500 passengers a day.......good luck!

[marcuscnelson]

I can't help but wonder when JTA is finally going to stop deluding itself with this pie in the sky fantasy of clown cars mingling with downtown traffic and just build a normal streetcar system like they should have planned to do in the first place.

[bl8jaxnative]

I can't help but wonder when JTA is finally going to stop deluding itself with this pie in the sky fantasy of clown cars mingling with downtown traffic and just build a normal streetcar system like they should have planned to do in the first place.

There's a special kind of ideological zealotry required to go from invoking delusion over robo minibuses only to immediately invoke using a technology that was made obsolete 90s years ago.

The problem with the skyway is that it requires a huge amount of resources.   It's fixed costs are sky high and it's more expensive to operate than the new BRT routes that are 3 times longer and carry 5 tiimes as many people.   The Skway is a resource hog that's completely unsustainable.

Today here are ZERO minibuses on the market that are designed to also operate on the Skyway.  JTA's Skyway equipment is at the end of it's life, constantly failing nearly every day.   The only thing keeping those decrepit cars running is some duct tape and really talented mechanics.   

The only thing JTA should be lobbying for at this time is for explicit permission to mothball the Skyway.  That is if there really is an issue with those Federal grants.   That's not entirely clear; it's a claim JTA has been reluctant to publically back with evidence.

TPO's data exachange plan is fantastic.  IIRC they're already providing / selling realtime traffic data to 3rd parties like Waze using blue tooth dectors.   Having data about pedestrian movements, parking spots, autos, etc on the corridor would be a great stepping off point into more sophisticated planning.


So:
a) Mothball the Skyway
b) Build the Bay Street data exchange with the smart meters, smart traffic lights, smart lighting, etc, etc. 

It's a great test bed for some cool technologies.   

[Tacachale]

I can't help but wonder when JTA is finally going to stop deluding itself with this pie in the sky fantasy of clown cars mingling with downtown traffic and just build a normal streetcar system like they should have planned to do in the first place.

There's a special kind of ideological zealotry required to go from invoking delusion over robo minibuses only to immediately invoke using a technology that was made obsolete 90s years ago.

The problem with the skyway is that it requires a huge amount of resources.   It's fixed costs are sky high and it's more expensive to operate than the new BRT routes that are 3 times longer and carry 5 tiimes as many people.   The Skway is a resource hog that's completely unsustainable.

Today here are ZERO minibuses on the market that are designed to also operate on the Skyway.  JTA's Skyway equipment is at the end of it's life, constantly failing nearly every day.   The only thing keeping those decrepit cars running is some duct tape and really talented mechanics.   

The only thing JTA should be lobbying for at this time is for explicit permission to mothball the Skyway.  That is if there really is an issue with those Federal grants.   That's not entirely clear; it's a claim JTA has been reluctant to publically back with evidence.

TPO's data exachange plan is fantastic.  IIRC they're already providing / selling realtime traffic data to 3rd parties like Waze using blue tooth dectors.   Having data about pedestrian movements, parking spots, autos, etc on the corridor would be a great stepping off point into more sophisticated planning.


So:
a) Mothball the Skyway
b) Build the Bay Street data exchange with the smart meters, smart traffic lights, smart lighting, etc, etc. 

It's a great test bed for some cool technologies.

Streetcar isn't any more obsolete than cars, buses and planes, which also existed 90 years ago. The main difference is that in the meantime, we've developed our cities almost exclusively around the car. Streetcars aren't suited for every environment but there are environments they're suited for as part of the transit network, as various cities have shown. Streetcars or something comparable would be a good fit for urban Jax, if it was implemented correctly.

As for mothballing the Skyway, that's a non-starter. We'd have to pay back millions in federal grants, nevermind the cost to demolish the infrastructure, to further deteriorate our transit network. There's no gain there. Replacing it would be better, just not with an unproven technology that doesn't have the capacity of the current monorails.

[vicupstate]

Didn't the Skyway get a total revamp not that long ago, and now it is obsolete again? 

If a powerful Senator or House member [a modern day Charles Bennett] could probably get something passed to allow JAX to demo the system if JAX paid for the demolition itself. If nothing else they could get the reimbursement reduced. If was done as part of a 'demonstration' project which clearly has not been successful.

 

[Non-RedNeck Westsider]

FIFY:

If (sic) was half-assedly done as part of a 'demonstration' project which clearly has not been given a real chance at being considered successful.

[vicupstate]

FIFY:

If (sic) was half-assedly done as part of a 'demonstration' project which clearly has not been given a real chance at being considered successful.

Correct, 'If' was supposed to be 'It' in my initial post.

A good argument can be made that it was done half-assed, and might have been successful if completed as intended. However, that is water under the bridge at this point. 

Serious question: would it be possible/desirable to not actually demolish it but turn it into a 'high line' similar to NYC?  Yes, that would be expensive but so would demolition of the infrastructure. If it was done with the NYC level of quality, it could be a real draw for residential (and other ) development.

We'd still have to pay back the feds to rip out the transit. At that stage, we're better of replacing it.

[tufsu1]

I can't help but wonder when JTA is finally going to stop deluding itself with this pie in the sky fantasy of clown cars mingling with downtown traffic and just build a normal streetcar system like they should have planned to do in the first place.

It isn't just JTA - pretty much every transportation agency in Florida is drinking the kool-aid on connected & autonomous vehicles.

[thelakelander]

They're the new toy of the month. Like electric scooters that are now giving bike share a run for its money, they have a role in the transportation world but it's not total disruption.

[Adam White]

I can't help but wonder when JTA is finally going to stop deluding itself with this pie in the sky fantasy of clown cars mingling with downtown traffic and just build a normal streetcar system like they should have planned to do in the first place.

There's a special kind of ideological zealotry required to go from invoking delusion over robo minibuses only to immediately invoke using a technology that was made obsolete 90s years ago.

The problem with the skyway is that it requires a huge amount of resources.   It's fixed costs are sky high and it's more expensive to operate than the new BRT routes that are 3 times longer and carry 5 tiimes as many people.   The Skway is a resource hog that's completely unsustainable.

Today here are ZERO minibuses on the market that are designed to also operate on the Skyway.  JTA's Skyway equipment is at the end of it's life, constantly failing nearly every day.   The only thing keeping those decrepit cars running is some duct tape and really talented mechanics.   

The only thing JTA should be lobbying for at this time is for explicit permission to mothball the Skyway.  That is if there really is an issue with those Federal grants.   That's not entirely clear; it's a claim JTA has been reluctant to publically back with evidence.

TPO's data exachange plan is fantastic.  IIRC they're already providing / selling realtime traffic data to 3rd parties like Waze using blue tooth dectors.   Having data about pedestrian movements, parking spots, autos, etc on the corridor would be a great stepping off point into more sophisticated planning.


So:
a) Mothball the Skyway
b) Build the Bay Street data exchange with the smart meters, smart traffic lights, smart lighting, etc, etc. 

It's a great test bed for some cool technologies.

Streetcars are trams and tram systems are very successfully used in cities all over the world. Perhaps the idea is an old one, but it seems to be a very viable one.

[Tacachale]

I can't help but wonder when JTA is finally going to stop deluding itself with this pie in the sky fantasy of clown cars mingling with downtown traffic and just build a normal streetcar system like they should have planned to do in the first place.

There's a special kind of ideological zealotry required to go from invoking delusion over robo minibuses only to immediately invoke using a technology that was made obsolete 90s years ago.

The problem with the skyway is that it requires a huge amount of resources.   It's fixed costs are sky high and it's more expensive to operate than the new BRT routes that are 3 times longer and carry 5 tiimes as many people.   The Skway is a resource hog that's completely unsustainable.

Today here are ZERO minibuses on the market that are designed to also operate on the Skyway.  JTA's Skyway equipment is at the end of it's life, constantly failing nearly every day.   The only thing keeping those decrepit cars running is some duct tape and really talented mechanics.   

The only thing JTA should be lobbying for at this time is for explicit permission to mothball the Skyway.  That is if there really is an issue with those Federal grants.   That's not entirely clear; it's a claim JTA has been reluctant to publically back with evidence.

TPO's data exachange plan is fantastic.  IIRC they're already providing / selling realtime traffic data to 3rd parties like Waze using blue tooth dectors.   Having data about pedestrian movements, parking spots, autos, etc on the corridor would be a great stepping off point into more sophisticated planning.


So:
a) Mothball the Skyway
b) Build the Bay Street data exchange with the smart meters, smart traffic lights, smart lighting, etc, etc. 

It's a great test bed for some cool technologies.

Streetcars are trams and tram systems are very successfully used in cities all over the world. Perhaps the idea is an old one, but it seems to be a very viable one.

Right. It's an old invention but so are cars, buses and planes.

[thelakelander]

The mistake we're making locally is planning in a vacuum.  We're so blown away be gadgets, toys and trying to be innovative, to the point that we forget, overlook or downplay the basics. Simply, before we debate over technology and what type of mode best serves the city, can we please decide what type of city we truly want to be and then craft our mobility and land use decisions to incrementally lead to that vision? There is no one-size fits all solution, so there will be areas where fixed transit, buses and even AVs make sense. There will also be other areas where none of them are a good fit. Unfortunately, it seems like everyone from JTA and COJ to the Jags are doing their own thing and none of the parts really effectively go together. With that said, I know for a fact representatives from all of agencies do communicate with each other but the end products clearly don't appear to be well aligned.