Author Topic: Interstate 95/10 Signage  (Read 8818 times)

Kerry

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Re: Interstate 95/10 Signage
« Reply #15 on: July 05, 2018, 05:33:42 PM »
For sure Jax could a lot more signs like this.  We actually don't have a lot of attractions so we will have to "fake it 'til we make it".



Items that could be called out:

The Landing - although someone said it has signs on the new Overland Bridge, it isn't big enough (1 million sq.ft.)
5-Points - not a regional mall, not a historic district
Cummer -
Museum of Contemporary Art
Museum of Southern History
- do any of these museums have more than 100,000 visitors a year?

Florida Theater
Convention Center
- more than 200,000 visitors/year; also, some of the exit signs on I-95 include the Convention Center
Area beaches on the East Beltway - JTB exits include, but not Atlantic or Beach Blvds. - good question
Zoo - on some exit signs on I-95 and I-295, part of the reason the City changed western Heckscher Drive to Zoo Parkway
TIAA Field - I think it is on some I-95 exits
Veterans Arena
Baseball Grounds
- part of the more generic Sports Complex, a problem, because listing all 3 would be too many lines on the Interstate signs

Just for fun a few years ago I did a complete downtown way finding system.  Would be nice to see that done as well. - was that the one with different colors for different parts of downtown/southbank?  I saw, and liked, that - shame COJ couldn't get the money together

But, the City would have to request the signs on the Interstate exits, then install "trailblazer" signs to guide traffic from the exit to the destination.

Then they better get busy.  Honestly, most cities have professional that work for them who do this kind of stuff as part of their job.  5 Points doesn't have to be a historic district.  I see highway signage for lots of places that aren't historic districts.  As for the museums - no they don't get 200,000 visitors and that is the problem.  With proper signage they would see an attendance boost.  The City should be proactive in this type of stuff but again, it's Jax where the motto seems to be, "Doing the bare minimum...and sometimes not even that much".
« Last Edit: July 05, 2018, 06:06:46 PM by Kerry »
Third Place

Kerry

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Re: Interstate 95/10 Signage
« Reply #16 on: July 06, 2018, 02:12:27 PM »
Decided to check the placement of the Springfield signs.  They aren't even on the freeway.  They are at the bottom of the north and south bound exits ramps.
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jax_hwy_engineer

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Re: Interstate 95/10 Signage
« Reply #17 on: July 06, 2018, 03:30:59 PM »
Guide signs are to guide you to and from the roads connected to Interstate freeways, not to advertise local businesses. Setting aside the headache of having countless destination signs in one of the busiest and most confusing interchanges in the city, do you REALLY think having signs on the side of the freeway will actually pull people off their commute and into these places? If people were really interested in finding these places they wouldn't they have a much easier time finding the hours, location, price, etc. by using their smartphone? Take a look at the fact that the Landing is currently listed on the I-95 signs. Is that magically becoming a hotspot because it's advertised on the freeway?

Also worth noting that the signing and pavement marking plan for each of these major RFP/Design-Build projects is initially composed by one team, approved by FDOT (District 2 in our case) and then ultimately designed by the final design firm/contractor joint venture. The city has little to no say AFAIK. Plus, what EXACTLY would they chose? Which business/historical district/museum makes the cut to be advertised on the freeway? Why didn't that OTHER museum/park/district get the mention? How is that fair? Why does the DB firm get to pick and choose?

There are a lot of legitimate grievances on this forum, but this really seems like a grasp at straws for an item that has a lot less of an effect than y'all seem to think it has...

[This is all opinion, Charles Hunter already killed it on the technical side with his citation of the MUTCD]

Kerry

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Re: Interstate 95/10 Signage
« Reply #18 on: July 06, 2018, 04:16:40 PM »
Spoken like a true engineer.  Meanwhile, back at the ranch, I run into people everyday around downtown the literally tell me, "I have lived here my whole life and didn't know this (whatever this happens to be at the time) was here."

Likewise, I travel a lot and yes these signs do entice me to stop at places that I either didn't know even existed or was unaware how close I am to them.  I specifically looked for the International Towing and Recovery sign because I did go there specifically because I saw THAT sign.

In addition, we live in tourism state with 3 cruise ships a week in port (2 Carnival and 1 American).  People come here whose only interest in Jax is this is where their ship departs.  They don't know what Jax has to offer.  A few years ago the State of Oklahoma started marketing I-35 as Adventure Road and every town/city has put up highway signs to lure visitors.  Some towns have little to advertise and others have a lot - but they are trying - and some will say with lots of success.

My advice - put the little green book down.

https://www.adventureroad.com/
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jaxlongtimer

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Re: Interstate 95/10 Signage
« Reply #19 on: July 06, 2018, 11:47:26 PM »
Guide signs are to guide you to and from the roads connected to Interstate freeways, not to advertise local businesses. Setting aside the headache of having countless destination signs in one of the busiest and most confusing interchanges in the city, do you REALLY think having signs on the side of the freeway will actually pull people off their commute and into these places? If people were really interested in finding these places they wouldn't they have a much easier time finding the hours, location, price, etc. by using their smartphone? Take a look at the fact that the Landing is currently listed on the I-95 signs. Is that magically becoming a hotspot because it's advertised on the freeway?

Also worth noting that the signing and pavement marking plan for each of these major RFP/Design-Build projects is initially composed by one team, approved by FDOT (District 2 in our case) and then ultimately designed by the final design firm/contractor joint venture. The city has little to no say AFAIK. Plus, what EXACTLY would they chose? Which business/historical district/museum makes the cut to be advertised on the freeway? Why didn't that OTHER museum/park/district get the mention? How is that fair? Why does the DB firm get to pick and choose?

There are a lot of legitimate grievances on this forum, but this really seems like a grasp at straws for an item that has a lot less of an effect than y'all seem to think it has...

[This is all opinion, Charles Hunter already killed it on the technical side with his citation of the MUTCD]
Like any highway agency, there are rules.  The relevant rules to the questions here relate to Control Cities (why "Jacksonville" appears as a destination within the city/county limits) and Supplemental Signs.  The controlling rules come from the Manual for Uniform Traffic Control Devices (MUTCD), that provides national standards for signs and pavement markings; with Chapter 2E Expressway Guide Signs being relevant - https://mutcd.fhwa.dot.gov/pdfs/2009r1r2/part2e.pdf
Two Florida-specific documents include a PowerPoint explaining Control Cities http://www.fdot.gov/traffic/pdf/control_city_pres_web.pdf - basically, they are to be places where interstates come together (Daytona Beach, Jacksonville, Lake City), or the ends of Interstates (Miami).  I believe Tallahassee is on the signs after you pass I-75 in Lake City.
And, rules for Supplemental Signs - http://flrules.elaws.us/fac/14-51  This Rule includes guidance for what can, and cannot, appear on freeway and exit signs.  There are minimum activity levels, and maximum distances from the exit.

For FDOT to consider signs for places like the Historic Districts, they have to be on the National Register, on the official FDOT Map, and the City must provide signs between the exit and the Historic District (among other things).  And, as pointed out, the City must request the signs.  Shopping malls are based on minimum square feet, and activity - not sure how the Landing made the cut.
I don't know why the names of the rivers are not signed on the Interstates - the rules allow it.  Although, according to Google Street View, there are Trout River signs on I-95, but no St. Johns River signs on I-295, either at Dames Point or Buckman.

Ron Tittle is the Public Information Officer for the Jacksonville FDOT office - 360-5647
A few comments re: the above quotes, particularly the ones I added bold to:

Re: rules:  Rules are usually subject to interpretation.  Also, many rules provide for a process to create exceptions.  And, if rules are not getting the job done, they can be changed.  I recall a big conversation here when FDOT-types insisted FDOT/Federal interstate rules prevented buildng a pedestrian/bike path along an interstate when it came up regarding the Fuller Warren/I95 bridge.  Posters soon posted pictures from around the country showing examples of it being done elsewhere.  And, lo and behold, FDOT is now building such a pathway along the Fuller Warren/I95 bridge!  Likewise, posters are again posting about observations of other communities getting more favorable signage on interstates than we do in Jax.

Re: Other comments:  The signs already up ARE advertising businesses!  The Landing, malls, TIAA Field (TIAA and Jaguars), dog tracks, for-profit colleges (Fla. Coastal Law School), golf tournament (PGA), Nocatee (private developer), etc.  Plus, one can argue that certain "public" facilities exist for the benefit of private businesses, such as the airport (airlines), the port (freight companies, importers/exporters), the arena (promoters of concerts), cruise terminal (Carnival), etc.

I have personally exited interstates to see sites/landmarks highlighted on signs.  How does one learn about many of them without the signs?  You are assuming that everyone traveling the interstates has researched every exit for hundreds of miles to scour for sites of interest.  That isn't feasible.  Plus, many joys of travel are derived from making spontaneous discoveries in the course of travel.  And, if road signs did not drive traffic, why all the "blue boards" on interstates and billboards alongside them?

Finally, you will not convince me that City leaders can't influence signage.  It is self-evident as you travel, which communities have influence over signs and which haven't based on the disproportionate distribution of them and inconsistent application of the "rules."  The reality is FDOT is clearly influenced by politics, like it or not (just look at where they build new roads to satisfy developers making big contributions to politicos starting with our Outer Beltway that every private toll road operator said wasn't feasible when asked to bid on it).

Sure, you can't put up a sign for everything but in the case of Jacksonville, we almost have no signs for anything :).