Author Topic: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018  (Read 27151 times)

JBTripper

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Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
« Reply #225 on: June 11, 2018, 04:27:38 PM »
Quote
He said the team’s annual home game in London remains crucial for the franchise, and Jaguars owner Shad Khan would like to play a second game in London in a future season if it could be done through back-to-back games. Lamping emphasized that if the Jaguars played a second London game, it would be for one of the team’s road games so it wouldn’t take another home game from Jaguars fans.

“Shad would like to see that, I think, if it made sense for us,” he said.

Smart guy.

Nice sentiment from Lamping, but I don't buy it.

What NFL owner at all concerned with winning is going to agree to sacrifice one of their own home games in order to fly overseas and play a well-rested Jags team in London, in a stadium that has been their second home field since 2013?

Nobody is going to agree to this, it puts the Jags at too much of an advantage.

The only way a second London game possibly makes sense is as a home game.

I think you underestimate the willingness of sports administrators to trade a competitive advantage for a big payday. Look at college football: Auburn opens 2018 with Washington in Atlanta. They could easily play Eastern Washington at Jordan-Hare and still make the College Football Playoff, but they'll make more money playing in the Chick-Fil-A Kickoff game. So that's what they're going to do.

I'm not sure why you think an NFL owner wouldn't make that same deal, in a league where winning each week is FAR less important to his bottom line. NFL owners in Cincinnati, Tampa, Indianapolis, Cleveland, Detroit, Arizona, Tennessee, Minnesota, Buffalo, Miami and Los Angeles would be lining up for the opportunity to play the "visiting" Jaguars in London.

Wacca Pilatka

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Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
« Reply #226 on: June 11, 2018, 04:42:15 PM »
^ I'm not sure I agree that every team on that list would be willing to play a home game against the Jaguars in London, but certainly some will.

Within the next few years, it's going to become clear that smaller market teams without secondary market support and/or strong investment from ownership are going to be the ones struggling to compete financially.  Cincinnati and Buffalo in particular come to mind - the Bengals' ownership has always been notoriously cheap, and fan support seems to be dwindling, while Buffalo has an aging stadium and fans who aren't willing to accept a ticket price bump.  The L.A. Chargers, as a distant second fiddle in a big market, following a badly handled relocation process, could be disadvantaged as well.  And so could Indianapolis if its fortunes on the field don't improve, because years of mismanagement and over-reliance on the security blanket of quarterbacking are taking their toll on ticket sales, plus its owner is insane.

Jacksonville's lack of secondary market support could have put the Jaguars in the same tenuous situation.  I increasingly think the London game is a coup for the team and the city, particularly if Khan is able to purchase Wembley and add rental revenues from teams that are going to be in a more precarious situation in their home markets.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2018, 04:50:14 PM by Wacca Pilatka »
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Kerry

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Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
« Reply #227 on: June 11, 2018, 09:00:06 PM »
Here is what we know:

Khan awarded Shipyards rights in 2015 - never built anything.

Khan awarded development rights again in April 2017 - year later and all we have is a new set of drawings.

One company we know of expressed interest in anchoring Khan development ultimately said No Thanks.

I think that's a slanted look at it. You then also have to consider

 - The Scoreboards and Pools
 - The Stadium Club Renovations
 - Daily's Place and the Flex Field

Those have all been completed.

Plus, is the fact that VyStar decided on the downtown core a knock on Khan?

Typical Khan mode of operation: I'm going to do great things for Jax but do these 3 things for me first.
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Steve

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Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
« Reply #228 on: June 12, 2018, 07:51:45 AM »
Here is what we know:

Khan awarded Shipyards rights in 2015 - never built anything.

Khan awarded development rights again in April 2017 - year later and all we have is a new set of drawings.

One company we know of expressed interest in anchoring Khan development ultimately said No Thanks.

I think that's a slanted look at it. You then also have to consider

 - The Scoreboards and Pools
 - The Stadium Club Renovations
 - Daily's Place and the Flex Field

Those have all been completed.

Plus, is the fact that VyStar decided on the downtown core a knock on Khan?

Typical Khan mode of operation: I'm going to do great things for Jax but do these 3 things for me first.

Make no mistake: they are ALL for Khan. He’s not a charity, he’s not doing this unless he can make money. Plus, how can you say that the public doesn’t benefit from Daily’s place. I’ll grant you that the Jaguar fans are the beneficiary of the first two, but Daily’s Place is critically important to the area

Kerry

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Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
« Reply #229 on: June 12, 2018, 08:59:01 AM »
The Daily Place deal was a bad deal for the taxpayers.  The City should have paid for it 100% and kept ALL the profits then told Khan to pay for his own stadium improvements if he thought it would financially benefit HIS business.
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Steve

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Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
« Reply #230 on: June 12, 2018, 09:23:03 AM »
The Daily Place deal was a bad deal for the taxpayers.  The City should have paid for it 100% and kept ALL the profits then told Khan to pay for his own stadium improvements if he thought it would financially benefit HIS business.

How much money do you think COJ makes from a concert at say, the Arena? It isn't much once you take out SMG's fees. I can't fathom how spending an extra $45M would have resulted in a better deal for the city.

While I don't feel this way, I suppose you could have made that argument for the Club Renovations and other stadium work. I can't see how the same argument could be made for Daily's Place.

Further, remember that the Cub Renovations and stadium improvements also benefit things like the Florida Georgia game and events like the FSU kickoff game in 2019. Atlanta is gunning hard (and has been) for the Florida Georgia game. That's one we really don't want to lose.
« Last Edit: June 12, 2018, 09:25:13 AM by Steve »

Tacachale

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Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
« Reply #231 on: June 12, 2018, 09:45:07 AM »
The Daily Place deal was a bad deal for the taxpayers.  The City should have paid for it 100% and kept ALL the profits then told Khan to pay for his own stadium improvements if he thought it would financially benefit HIS business.

How much money do you think COJ makes from a concert at say, the Arena? It isn't much once you take out SMG's fees. I can't fathom how spending an extra $45M would have resulted in a better deal for the city.

While I don't feel this way, I suppose you could have made that argument for the Club Renovations and other stadium work. I can't see how the same argument could be made for Daily's Place.

Further, remember that the Cub Renovations and stadium improvements also benefit things like the Florida Georgia game and events like the FSU kickoff game in 2019. Atlanta is gunning hard (and has been) for the Florida Georgia game. That's one we really don't want to lose.

Yeah, that's really silly. Khan paid for half of the Daily's Place project, which the practice field and stadium improvements. The city owns all three of those facilities. Plus, it would have to contract some operator to run Daily's Place anyway. It was as good a deal for the city as it could possibly be - how do you turn down someone offering to go halves on city-owned, revenue generating properties, including an amphitheater that has been badly needed since the 90s?
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Tacachale

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Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
« Reply #232 on: June 12, 2018, 09:52:47 AM »
Atlanta is gunning hard (and has been) for the Florida Georgia game. That's one we really don't want to lose.

I don't know who in Atlanta is still pushing that. If the stadium ownership wanted a shot at it, they ended their chances by making the new stadium seat only 71,000. I also don't see the City of Atlanta ever caring enough to cut the kind of deal Jacksonville has always been willing to do with our bigger stadium.
Do you believe that when the blue jay or another bird sings and the body is trembling, that is a signal that people are coming or something important is about to happen?

Steve

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Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
« Reply #233 on: June 12, 2018, 10:14:02 AM »
Atlanta is gunning hard (and has been) for the Florida Georgia game. That's one we really don't want to lose.

I don't know who in Atlanta is still pushing that. If the stadium ownership wanted a shot at it, they ended their chances by making the new stadium seat only 71,000. I also don't see the City of Atlanta ever caring enough to cut the kind of deal Jacksonville has always been willing to do with our bigger stadium.

It can be expanded to 75k for the Super Bowl, but I do agree with your point-the Flordia Georgia game is about Butts in the Seats first, and amenities second. As long as it can achieve that balance in Jacksonville then I think it’s fine. Longer term, I think the driver could be UGA’s athletics department. For UF, it’s a 90 minute bus ride. For UGA, it involves an airplane. Atlanta is to UGA distancewise as Jacksonville is to UF.

Do I think the game is truly in danger now? Presently no. However, this was a real concern prior to landing the Jaguars as the old Gator Bowl badly needed improvement.

As long as the stadium is a top tier facility and the game is financially viable for both schools, why change a good thing.

Tacachale

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Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
« Reply #234 on: June 12, 2018, 10:50:57 AM »
Atlanta is gunning hard (and has been) for the Florida Georgia game. That's one we really don't want to lose.

I don't know who in Atlanta is still pushing that. If the stadium ownership wanted a shot at it, they ended their chances by making the new stadium seat only 71,000. I also don't see the City of Atlanta ever caring enough to cut the kind of deal Jacksonville has always been willing to do with our bigger stadium.

It can be expanded to 75k for the Super Bowl, but I do agree with your point-the Flordia Georgia game is about Butts in the Seats first, and amenities second. As long as it can achieve that balance in Jacksonville then I think it’s fine. Longer term, I think the driver could be UGA’s athletics department. For UF, it’s a 90 minute bus ride. For UGA, it involves an airplane. Atlanta is to UGA distancewise as Jacksonville is to UF.

Do I think the game is truly in danger now? Presently no. However, this was a real concern prior to landing the Jaguars as the old Gator Bowl badly needed improvement.

As long as the stadium is a top tier facility and the game is financially viable for both schools, why change a good thing.

I don't see the UGA Athletics department ever pushing for Atlanta unless they the teams could make more money there. The push to either add Atlanta or shift to home-and-away mostly comes from Georgia fans in years where they're consistently losing. The school itself is all about the money, and so far, that's in Jacksonville.

Both schools would lose a lot of money going home-and-away, so I can't see them ever doing that. If they could make more money in Atlanta, I'd see that as a bigger threat. But I don't see how that would work logistically. It's a smaller stadium, the city (which already has 3 major college football games a year and a million other things going on) has no incentive to cut a sweetheart deal, and Florida has no real reason to change.

Over the long term, there's definitely a risk we lose it. But there's also a chance that in 30 years no one cares about college football anymore anyway. What we need to do is keep focusing on our periodic contracts when they come up to make sure they're winners for all involved.
Do you believe that when the blue jay or another bird sings and the body is trembling, that is a signal that people are coming or something important is about to happen?

KenFSU

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Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
« Reply #235 on: June 12, 2018, 11:27:12 AM »
The Daily Place deal was a bad deal for the taxpayers.  The City should have paid for it 100% and kept ALL the profits then told Khan to pay for his own stadium improvements if he thought it would financially benefit HIS business.

How much money do you think COJ makes from a concert at say, the Arena? It isn't much once you take out SMG's fees. I can't fathom how spending an extra $45M would have resulted in a better deal for the city.

While I don't feel this way, I suppose you could have made that argument for the Club Renovations and other stadium work. I can't see how the same argument could be made for Daily's Place.

Further, remember that the Cub Renovations and stadium improvements also benefit things like the Florida Georgia game and events like the FSU kickoff game in 2019. Atlanta is gunning hard (and has been) for the Florida Georgia game. That's one we really don't want to lose.

There are a lot of shades of gray here.

Daily's Place is a huge net positive for the area and fills a gap that we've been trying to fill since the 1990's.

And though I wouldn't characterize it as a terrible deal for the city, I can at least understand Kerry's point of view.

Total breakdown for the $90 million project, which the city split equally with Khan, was:

$20 million - Jaguars Practice Field
$25 million - Assure Club Renovations
$45 million - Daily's Place

The widely accepted narrative is that Khan went in half with the city on a $45 million ampitheater.

The flip-side of the narrative, which people don't talk about as much, is that this must also mean that the city paid half for a $20 million practice field for a $2.1 billion private business, and half for $25 million club seat upgrades which the Jags obviously benefit from much more than the city does.

I think a more accurate way to look at the project is:

- The Jags funded a $20 million practice facility.
- The Jags and city split the $25 million club seat upgrades 50/50
- The city spent $32.5 million on Daily's Place, with the Jags kicking in $12.5 million

As the city owns all three properties, we are responsible for maintenance, upkeep, and utilities for all three venues, including the Jaguars' practice facility.

Somehow though, the Jaguars get to keep 100% of naming rights revenue from the club section (USS Assure), the practice field (Dream Finders) and the amphitheater (Daily's), in addition to using a city-owned, city-funded practice field rent-free, and getting a cut of all of the profits at Daily's Place through Bold Events.

Whatever, it came from bed taxes, not the general fund, which have to be used for this type of project anyway.

I ain't mad, the arrangement seems fine with all parties.

We got a much needed asset in Daily's Place, and built some goodwill with Khan and the Jags, which is the price to pay to be in the NFL game in 2018.

But I do think it's a mischaracterization to label Daily's Place as some kind of altruistic 50/50 gift from the Jags to the city without in turn mentioning the practice field and club upgrades as 50/50 gifts from the city to a private corporation.
« Last Edit: June 12, 2018, 11:33:31 AM by KenFSU »

JaxAvondale

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Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
« Reply #236 on: June 12, 2018, 12:27:09 PM »
Atlanta is gunning hard (and has been) for the Florida Georgia game. That's one we really don't want to lose.

I don't know who in Atlanta is still pushing that. If the stadium ownership wanted a shot at it, they ended their chances by making the new stadium seat only 71,000. I also don't see the City of Atlanta ever caring enough to cut the kind of deal Jacksonville has always been willing to do with our bigger stadium.

It can be expanded to 75k for the Super Bowl, but I do agree with your point-the Flordia Georgia game is about Butts in the Seats first, and amenities second. As long as it can achieve that balance in Jacksonville then I think it’s fine. Longer term, I think the driver could be UGA’s athletics department. For UF, it’s a 90 minute bus ride. For UGA, it involves an airplane. Atlanta is to UGA distancewise as Jacksonville is to UF.

Do I think the game is truly in danger now? Presently no. However, this was a real concern prior to landing the Jaguars as the old Gator Bowl badly needed improvement.

As long as the stadium is a top tier facility and the game is financially viable for both schools, why change a good thing.

I don't see the UGA Athletics department ever pushing for Atlanta unless they the teams could make more money there. The push to either add Atlanta or shift to home-and-away mostly comes from Georgia fans in years where they're consistently losing. The school itself is all about the money, and so far, that's in Jacksonville.

Both schools would lose a lot of money going home-and-away, so I can't see them ever doing that. If they could make more money in Atlanta, I'd see that as a bigger threat. But I don't see how that would work logistically. It's a smaller stadium, the city (which already has 3 major college football games a year and a million other things going on) has no incentive to cut a sweetheart deal, and Florida has no real reason to change.

Over the long term, there's definitely a risk we lose it. But there's also a chance that in 30 years no one cares about college football anymore anyway. What we need to do is keep focusing on our periodic contracts when they come up to make sure they're winners for all involved.

The only scenario where I see Atlanta getting involved is if the agreement was a even/odd year switch between Jacksonville/Atlanta. With the assumption, that the Gator Bowl association could put on another college game the seasons that the game was in Atlanta.

Kerry

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Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
« Reply #237 on: June 12, 2018, 01:42:31 PM »
If the Bed Tax is generating that much revenue then either lower the tax, shift some to the general fund, or start spending it on other "tourism" projects.  Khan has $4 billion of his own money.
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Jagsdrew

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Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
« Reply #238 on: June 12, 2018, 01:46:48 PM »
The Daily Place deal was a bad deal for the taxpayers.  The City should have paid for it 100% and kept ALL the profits then told Khan to pay for his own stadium improvements if he thought it would financially benefit HIS business.

How much money do you think COJ makes from a concert at say, the Arena? It isn't much once you take out SMG's fees. I can't fathom how spending an extra $45M would have resulted in a better deal for the city.

While I don't feel this way, I suppose you could have made that argument for the Club Renovations and other stadium work. I can't see how the same argument could be made for Daily's Place.

Further, remember that the Cub Renovations and stadium improvements also benefit things like the Florida Georgia game and events like the FSU kickoff game in 2019. Atlanta is gunning hard (and has been) for the Florida Georgia game. That's one we really don't want to lose.

There are a lot of shades of gray here.

Daily's Place is a huge net positive for the area and fills a gap that we've been trying to fill since the 1990's.

And though I wouldn't characterize it as a terrible deal for the city, I can at least understand Kerry's point of view.

Total breakdown for the $90 million project, which the city split equally with Khan, was:

$20 million - Jaguars Practice Field
$25 million - Assure Club Renovations
$45 million - Daily's Place

The widely accepted narrative is that Khan went in half with the city on a $45 million ampitheater.

The flip-side of the narrative, which people don't talk about as much, is that this must also mean that the city paid half for a $20 million practice field for a $2.1 billion private business, and half for $25 million club seat upgrades which the Jags obviously benefit from much more than the city does.

I think a more accurate way to look at the project is:

- The Jags funded a $20 million practice facility.
- The Jags and city split the $25 million club seat upgrades 50/50
- The city spent $32.5 million on Daily's Place, with the Jags kicking in $12.5 million

As the city owns all three properties, we are responsible for maintenance, upkeep, and utilities for all three venues, including the Jaguars' practice facility.

Somehow though, the Jaguars get to keep 100% of naming rights revenue from the club section (USS Assure), the practice field (Dream Finders) and the amphitheater (Daily's), in addition to using a city-owned, city-funded practice field rent-free, and getting a cut of all of the profits at Daily's Place through Bold Events.

Whatever, it came from bed taxes, not the general fund, which have to be used for this type of project anyway.

I ain't mad, the arrangement seems fine with all parties.

We got a much needed asset in Daily's Place, and built some goodwill with Khan and the Jags, which is the price to pay to be in the NFL game in 2018.

But I do think it's a mischaracterization to label Daily's Place as some kind of altruistic 50/50 gift from the Jags to the city without in turn mentioning the practice field and club upgrades as 50/50 gifts from the city to a private corporation.

The team has to find new revenue streams to stay profitable because let's be honest, the Jags haven't been a profitable team based of LOCAL revenue over the course of 10 years until the last 2 years or so.  With the taxpayer's help, these co-funded projects can help which is beneficial to the city and the team.
-City gets a new tax stream based off ticket purchases/fees/parking/concessions
-Jags get a revenue stream based off tickets/sponsorships/concessions

From the Jaguars POV, they have added resources and jobs(Full time and contract jobs) to help staff Daily's Place. Additionally, the revenue from concerts and other ancillary events help the bottom line for the city and Jaguars so its mutually beneficial. I would agree the Jaguars get the bigger slice of the pie though because Bold Events (aka the Jaguars) are on the hook to book and operate all the entertainment there so it's a lot on the Jaguars to make Daily's Place profitable. The city assists in some capacity, but 75% is on the Jags. 

The Jags do use a lot of their assets to promote events there(Jags.com, email database, season ticket members, etc) Additionally, they are spending media dollars back into the market with local advertisers (same with the concert promoters) to promote these events.

Even though small, the new US Assure Clubs host a wide variety of events in this space from events/parties to business meetings/functions which attracts more than they would with the old dated space thus bringing in additional dollars.

Even though the city foot half the bill if not more, I think the ROI over the course of 20+ years will benefit the city in the long run.





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KenFSU

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Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
« Reply #239 on: June 12, 2018, 02:31:53 PM »
Even though the city foot half the bill if not more, I think the ROI over the course of 20+ years will benefit the city in the long run.

I'm with you, totally agree that it's still a better deal than going it alone.

And even if we never ROI on paper, I think we ROI in terms of quality of life. I feel the same way about the Jags overall. Few economic studies are going to show that we ROI financially on our NFL investment, but the local quality-of-life impact of having the NFL in Jacksonville is damn near priceless.