Author Topic: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018  (Read 27066 times)

JBTripper

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 168
Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
« Reply #195 on: April 30, 2018, 02:33:38 PM »
If he bought some stadium somewhere in North America, then I'd be concerned. There are still so many logistical challenges with a team in London it's not even funny. Yes, the potential money has a way of "easing" some of those, but I'm still not seeing this at any point soon.

I think the NFL would need to be in a position where they could base 2 (or ideally 4) teams in Europe, as the logistics for these teams (and their opponents) would be brutal. If you have 2 teams over there, then you can start to ease the number of trips across the pond - if you go over, then you play both teams, when they come over they play 2-3 in a row on the road, etc.

I also think that in order for this to happen, they are likely going to try out another city besides London to compliment it (perhaps Munich or Berlin). Not sure I can see 2 teams in London that then would have to fill the place a total of 20 times.

I wonder if the travel thing isn't vastly overblown. This is the NFL. It's not like they're operating on some razor-thin margin. And as for the physical toll on the players... a first-class flight to London can't be any more taxing than playing a football game.

sanmarcomatt

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1108
  • Mayor of The Coffee District
Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
« Reply #196 on: April 30, 2018, 02:34:46 PM »
I like the Jags being here, and a long time season ticket holder(with a 4 game blip last year) but he could move the team tomorrow and while I won't be happy, it will take me about by 5 minutes to get over it. I don't think it would hurt Jax at all. Probably help in the long term.

I disagree.

The team is deeply interwoven into the fabric of our community, spanning generations, and I think it would really do a number on Jacksonville to lose that institution.

The Jags give Jacksonville identity.

Externally with outsiders, sure, but even more importantly, internally as a city.

The Jags are the glue that unites an 800 square mile metro that is, for all intents and purposes, a collection of smaller, very different cities operating under a consolidated government.

You walk around Hemming Park, or the beaches, or the Town Center, or the Orange Park mall, or Mayport, or UNF, and you see Jags gear everywhere, and you hear people talking about our team. And debating the draft. And celebrating wins. And commiserating the losses.

You wear a Jags t-shirt at LaGuardia, or O'Hare, or Hartsfield-Jackson, you're going to be approached by other Jacksonville travelers.

And you go to the games on Sunday afternoon, and you see an entire cross-section of the community, coming together, cheering for their local team, and screaming the name of our county at the top of their lungs.

That's irreplaceable.

I think what makes this current team so special is how closely the team's identity mirrors that of the city - the scrappy underdog, minimized by the national media, with a chip on its shoulder and ready to prove the doubters wrong. Led by a blue-collar, bologna-sandwich-eating coach, and a quarterback that is pure Jax Beach.

Plus, the guys love it here, and want to be here, and I think that's infectious and trickles down to every aspect of our community, from business development, to racial relations, to overall civic pride.


By any chance, did you think up the "Jaguaring" idea?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lrevDYTvX58



JBTripper

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 168
Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
« Reply #197 on: April 30, 2018, 02:48:50 PM »
^Then those fans are wildly ignorant of the basic facts and holding on to assumptions that are easily disproven with a simple Google search. The Jaguars have been very open about their desire to make London a second home. The team has a formal agreement to play one home game a season in London through 2020, with an extension through 2025 if the league approves it. Khan very publicly lobbied for an extension through 2030 a few years ago. The game isn't going anywhere, it's an important part of the Jags business model, and no one within the organization is suggesting otherwise.

When I say that Khan won't Irsay the Jags, I don't mean there's zero percent chance the Jags will move to London one day. What I mean is that the Jags are very transparent about the economic health of the franchise, and we'll know years in advance if the Jags no longer consider Jacksonville to be economically viable. We're not just going to wake up to an unexpected headline one morning that the Jags have packed up and moved in the dead of the night.

To a previous poster's point that we have no way of knowing for sure and both sides of the argument are purely hypothetical, to me, that's where Occam's Razor comes in. Which theory makes the fewest assumptions? 1) Khan is telling the truth and wants to do everything possible to keep the team in Jacksonville 2) Khan has a secret ploy to move the team to London.

We have plenty of empirical evidence supporting theory #1. And, quite literally, zero empirical evidence supporting theory #2. He's invested over a hundred million dollars to improve the gameday experience in Jacksonville and to build new long-term revenue streams. He's stocked the front office with proven winners like Mark Lamping and local heros like Tom Coughlin. He's spent a ton in free agency and redesigned the uniforms twice to push sales. He's invested heavily in regional marketing to draw in more fans from nearby cities. He's made it more affordable to go to Jags games through concession reductions and clear plastic bags. He's recruited Cordish to build a huge development next to the stadium, and is pushing the city to remove the Hart Bridge ramps so the Jags can develop the Shipyards. He was at the draft party at Daily's Place randomly walking around high fiving fans, he had tears in his eyes when the city got its first home playoff win in 20 years, and he was deeply and visibly hurt when the media suggested the Wembley thing was a ploy to relocate the Jags to London. He's also widely considered to be one of the best owners in the league.

The only way the London conspiracy makes sense is if we assume that all of this is an act intended to lull Jacksonville into a false sense of security and then crush their hopes and dreams, cartoon villian style.

If he really wanted to move the team to London, ALL he needed to do was buy the team, maintain the status quo, and let the fanbase continue to erode until they sustained three years of consecutive financial losses and could move penalty free.

I take Khan at his word, but until I see cranes over Lot J I'm going to be very nervous. I can't help but look at the "transparency" at each year's "State of the Franchise" as a setting of the table for a departure down the road. This year Lamping even said, referencing the "Team Teal" year, something along the lines of "we made a marketing decision not to campaign under the idea that 'if you don't support us, something bad might happen,'" which... to me sounds an awful lot like something bad might happen even though they're not saying it.

It feels like things get better every year, and then Lamping comes out and shows us the PowerPoint of Destiny that explains why Jacksonville has such a hard time being "financially viable." The team is winning, the organization is insanely profitable, local revenue is up... but we aren't viable because we aren't keeping pace with much larger markets. So we need to develop the shipyards/Lot J/Met Park in order to create more local revenue... and yet there's been no activity beyond a new set of renderings every year. Is it a stretch to think that one day we could wake up to the London Jaguars saying "look, we tried! We proposed new revenue streams but the city wouldn't pay ball and/or the market wouldn't support what we needed to do?"

Maybe I need a tinfoil hat.


KenFSU

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3467
Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
« Reply #198 on: April 30, 2018, 03:16:46 PM »
I like the Jags being here, and a long time season ticket holder(with a 4 game blip last year) but he could move the team tomorrow and while I won't be happy, it will take me about by 5 minutes to get over it. I don't think it would hurt Jax at all. Probably help in the long term.

I disagree.

The team is deeply interwoven into the fabric of our community, spanning generations, and I think it would really do a number on Jacksonville to lose that institution.

The Jags give Jacksonville identity.

Externally with outsiders, sure, but even more importantly, internally as a city.

The Jags are the glue that unites an 800 square mile metro that is, for all intents and purposes, a collection of smaller, very different cities operating under a consolidated government.

You walk around Hemming Park, or the beaches, or the Town Center, or the Orange Park mall, or Mayport, or UNF, and you see Jags gear everywhere, and you hear people talking about our team. And debating the draft. And celebrating wins. And commiserating the losses.

You wear a Jags t-shirt at LaGuardia, or O'Hare, or Hartsfield-Jackson, you're going to be approached by other Jacksonville travelers.

And you go to the games on Sunday afternoon, and you see an entire cross-section of the community, coming together, cheering for their local team, and screaming the name of our county at the top of their lungs.

That's irreplaceable.

I think what makes this current team so special is how closely the team's identity mirrors that of the city - the scrappy underdog, minimized by the national media, with a chip on its shoulder and ready to prove the doubters wrong. Led by a blue-collar, bologna-sandwich-eating coach, and a quarterback that is pure Jax Beach.

Plus, the guys love it here, and want to be here, and I think that's infectious and trickles down to every aspect of our community, from business development, to racial relations, to overall civic pride.


By any chance, did you think up the "Jaguaring" idea?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lrevDYTvX58




Yes.

So what's your rationale that if the Jaguars were to vacate Jacksonville, it wouldn't hurt the city at all? Or, that it would actually be good for the city? Purely because of the economic subsidies?

KenFSU

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3467
Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
« Reply #199 on: April 30, 2018, 03:35:03 PM »
I take Khan at his word, but until I see cranes over Lot J I'm going to be very nervous. I can't help but look at the "transparency" at each year's "State of the Franchise" as a setting of the table for a departure down the road. This year Lamping even said, referencing the "Team Teal" year, something along the lines of "we made a marketing decision not to campaign under the idea that 'if you don't support us, something bad might happen,'" which... to me sounds an awful lot like something bad might happen even though they're not saying it.

It feels like things get better every year, and then Lamping comes out and shows us the PowerPoint of Destiny that explains why Jacksonville has such a hard time being "financially viable." The team is winning, the organization is insanely profitable, local revenue is up... but we aren't viable because we aren't keeping pace with much larger markets. So we need to develop the shipyards/Lot J/Met Park in order to create more local revenue... and yet there's been no activity beyond a new set of renderings every year. Is it a stretch to think that one day we could wake up to the London Jaguars saying "look, we tried! We proposed new revenue streams but the city wouldn't pay ball and/or the market wouldn't support what we needed to do?"

Maybe I need a tinfoil hat.



I totally agree on Lamping's Powerpoints. They certainly have a way of taking the joy out of the State of the Franchise at times. I think the Jags are very selective about the data that they present as well. I hate the chart that shows that the Jags used to have the highest ticket prices in the league, but are now amongst the lowest. It's a very misleading chart. Those first couple of years were insanely inflated due to the presales and the pent-up excitement about the NFL selecting Jacksonville. They were never sustainable for a market this size, and it's silly to use them as a basis for comparison in 2018. I also think that it's in poor taste to imply that Everbank is inadequate after the city invested $100 million in improvements in the last couple of years.

I also agree with your point that the Jaguars' future in Jacksonville is going to hinge on the city's willingness (and ability) to play ball on the Shipyards and Lot J.

Ain't gonna be cheap to keep them in Jacksonville, but that's the nature of the NFL, as shitty as it is. Especially with the NFL's revenue sharing model that puts so much pressure on small markets to pull their weight and earn their equal piece of the pie.


Steve

  • The Jaxson
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2433
Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
« Reply #200 on: April 30, 2018, 04:02:06 PM »
If he bought some stadium somewhere in North America, then I'd be concerned. There are still so many logistical challenges with a team in London it's not even funny. Yes, the potential money has a way of "easing" some of those, but I'm still not seeing this at any point soon.

I think the NFL would need to be in a position where they could base 2 (or ideally 4) teams in Europe, as the logistics for these teams (and their opponents) would be brutal. If you have 2 teams over there, then you can start to ease the number of trips across the pond - if you go over, then you play both teams, when they come over they play 2-3 in a row on the road, etc.

I also think that in order for this to happen, they are likely going to try out another city besides London to compliment it (perhaps Munich or Berlin). Not sure I can see 2 teams in London that then would have to fill the place a total of 20 times.

I wonder if the travel thing isn't vastly overblown. This is the NFL. It's not like they're operating on some razor-thin margin. And as for the physical toll on the players... a first-class flight to London can't be any more taxing than playing a football game.

Not sure if I'd say it's overblown. The NFL Players Association already has made a point in the past regarding east coast-west coast trips. I recognize that east coast to London isn't THAT different than say NY-LA. But, West Coast to London is a legit haul. If the Chargers or 49ers have to do that on a regular basis, that will take a toll.

sanmarcomatt

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1108
  • Mayor of The Coffee District
Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
« Reply #201 on: April 30, 2018, 04:14:54 PM »
I like the Jags being here, and a long time season ticket holder(with a 4 game blip last year) but he could move the team tomorrow and while I won't be happy, it will take me about by 5 minutes to get over it. I don't think it would hurt Jax at all. Probably help in the long term.

I disagree.

The team is deeply interwoven into the fabric of our community, spanning generations, and I think it would really do a number on Jacksonville to lose that institution.

The Jags give Jacksonville identity.

Externally with outsiders, sure, but even more importantly, internally as a city.

The Jags are the glue that unites an 800 square mile metro that is, for all intents and purposes, a collection of smaller, very different cities operating under a consolidated government.

You walk around Hemming Park, or the beaches, or the Town Center, or the Orange Park mall, or Mayport, or UNF, and you see Jags gear everywhere, and you hear people talking about our team. And debating the draft. And celebrating wins. And commiserating the losses.

You wear a Jags t-shirt at LaGuardia, or O'Hare, or Hartsfield-Jackson, you're going to be approached by other Jacksonville travelers.

And you go to the games on Sunday afternoon, and you see an entire cross-section of the community, coming together, cheering for their local team, and screaming the name of our county at the top of their lungs.

That's irreplaceable.

I think what makes this current team so special is how closely the team's identity mirrors that of the city - the scrappy underdog, minimized by the national media, with a chip on its shoulder and ready to prove the doubters wrong. Led by a blue-collar, bologna-sandwich-eating coach, and a quarterback that is pure Jax Beach.

Plus, the guys love it here, and want to be here, and I think that's infectious and trickles down to every aspect of our community, from business development, to racial relations, to overall civic pride.


By any chance, did you think up the "Jaguaring" idea?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lrevDYTvX58




Yes.

So what's your rationale that if the Jaguars were to vacate Jacksonville, it wouldn't hurt the city at all? Or, that it would actually be good for the city? Purely because of the economic subsidies?

Mostly economic (both tax dollars and people's discretionary spending going elsewhere) but also would like to see what could be accomplished with the time and energy being directed to alternatives besides the NFL.

Of course, I am hoping city leadership is better over the next 20 years than the pathetic joke it has been the last 20.

Note, if I thought Khan would actually invest in the city(non Jags) I would feel vastly different.

Once again, I hope he develops the shit out of the sports district and the Jags are here the next 30 years.

But it is a freaking football team run by a billionaire that is part of an exclusive group of mostly billionaires that loots tax dollars like candy. If they go. They go. I cannot imagine thinking a professional sports team is that important. To each his own.







Tacachale

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6979
Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
« Reply #202 on: April 30, 2018, 04:42:33 PM »
I take exception to some comments a few days back that said effectively that Jacksonville needs to hurry up and give Khan the development deal he wants, or face losing the Jags. What Jacksonville really needs to do is work with Khan on a realistic deal that makes sense for the city, weighing the benefits to the team against the costs of the deal and the opportunity cost of what else we could do with the money. If there's a deal out there that works out, grab it. If not, pass. Not all deals that Khan may pitch are good for the city.

Case in point the original Shipyards deal from 2015. Folks forget that as flashy as it was, it was a *horrible* deal for the city. It would have essentially entailed paying Khan to take our land, cleaning it up at our expense, and subsidizing the amphitheater and the practice field (which he would own), allowing him to sell of the rest in pieces at his leisure, and *tie all the tax money generated by the new development in the development itself*.

Fortunately, after the administration changed brought in better negotiators, that deal was axed. So then they worked on things that the Jaguars had really wanted to begin with, in a way that had an actual return for the city - we contributed to the amphitheater and practice field (which the city owns, rather than the Jags). The current plans in Lot J and whatnot look like the next progression from that. Those plans are not at a stage where we can actually know what the impact will be on the city, because it's so conjectural at this point. There are no concrete plans or cost estimates, so we don't know yet. Hopefully it turns out awesome and brings a lot of new activity to the Stadium District where none existed before. But if it's not, then we need to say no.
Do you believe that when the blue jay or another bird sings and the body is trembling, that is a signal that people are coming or something important is about to happen?

ProjectMaximus

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3105
Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
« Reply #203 on: April 30, 2018, 05:33:25 PM »
Not sure if I'd say it's overblown. The NFL Players Association already has made a point in the past regarding east coast-west coast trips. I recognize that east coast to London isn't THAT different than say NY-LA. But, West Coast to London is a legit haul. If the Chargers or 49ers have to do that on a regular basis, that will take a toll.

In a decade it will just be a 2-3 hour shuttle on the hyperloop.  ;D ;D

CityLife

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1697
Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
« Reply #204 on: April 30, 2018, 09:08:28 PM »
I take exception to some comments a few days back that said effectively that Jacksonville needs to hurry up and give Khan the development deal he wants, or face losing the Jags. What Jacksonville really needs to do is work with Khan on a realistic deal that makes sense for the city, weighing the benefits to the team against the costs of the deal and the opportunity cost of what else we could do with the money. If there's a deal out there that works out, grab it. If not, pass. Not all deals that Khan may pitch are good for the city.

I presume this is directed towards my earlier posts? If so, in no way did I imply that the City should give Khan whatever he wants. Merely that the City and various public agencies need to be ready to play big league ball and hold up their end of the partnership.

JaxAvondale

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 420
Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
« Reply #205 on: April 30, 2018, 10:42:30 PM »
If he bought some stadium somewhere in North America, then I'd be concerned. There are still so many logistical challenges with a team in London it's not even funny. Yes, the potential money has a way of "easing" some of those, but I'm still not seeing this at any point soon.

I think the NFL would need to be in a position where they could base 2 (or ideally 4) teams in Europe, as the logistics for these teams (and their opponents) would be brutal. If you have 2 teams over there, then you can start to ease the number of trips across the pond - if you go over, then you play both teams, when they come over they play 2-3 in a row on the road, etc.

I also think that in order for this to happen, they are likely going to try out another city besides London to compliment it (perhaps Munich or Berlin). Not sure I can see 2 teams in London that then would have to fill the place a total of 20 times.

I wonder if the travel thing isn't vastly overblown. This is the NFL. It's not like they're operating on some razor-thin margin. And as for the physical toll on the players... a first-class flight to London can't be any more taxing than playing a football game.

Not sure if I'd say it's overblown. The NFL Players Association already has made a point in the past regarding east coast-west coast trips. I recognize that east coast to London isn't THAT different than say NY-LA. But, West Coast to London is a legit haul. If the Chargers or 49ers have to do that on a regular basis, that will take a toll.

The current CBA expires after the 2020 season. So, there would have to be huge concessions made by both sides to get the language in the next CBA.

Article 12 of the CBA goes into what is considered AR (All Revenues). You can get a good idea of the revenue that Khan can generate by owning Wembley.

https://nfllabor.files.wordpress.com/2010/01/collective-bargaining-agreement-2011-2020.pdf


Lostwave

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 75
Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
« Reply #206 on: May 01, 2018, 09:13:34 AM »
Everbank letters came off the stadium yesterday.  Unfortunately they went into a dumpster.  I wanted to grab one, but they are huge.  Even the little letter r was taller than 6'.

I have some photos I will try to post.

KenFSU

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3467
Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
« Reply #207 on: May 01, 2018, 11:46:32 AM »
Everbank letters came off the stadium yesterday.  Unfortunately they went into a dumpster.  I wanted to grab one, but they are huge.  Even the little letter r was taller than 6'.

I have some photos I will try to post.

Similar to the Greyhound logo that just got shipped to a warehouse in Orlando, you'd think that there would be some value to retaining stadium signage in case we ever decided to open a local sports museum.

Tacachale

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6979
Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
« Reply #208 on: May 01, 2018, 12:12:33 PM »
I take exception to some comments a few days back that said effectively that Jacksonville needs to hurry up and give Khan the development deal he wants, or face losing the Jags. What Jacksonville really needs to do is work with Khan on a realistic deal that makes sense for the city, weighing the benefits to the team against the costs of the deal and the opportunity cost of what else we could do with the money. If there's a deal out there that works out, grab it. If not, pass. Not all deals that Khan may pitch are good for the city.

I presume this is directed towards my earlier posts? If so, in no way did I imply that the City should give Khan whatever he wants. Merely that the City and various public agencies need to be ready to play big league ball and hold up their end of the partnership.

I don't remember who posted what exactly, but yeah - the city should be ready to play big league ball, but that means determining what's really a good deal, and what's rolling over. I don't think folks appreciate how close we were to giving away the store in 2015 when this was all first proposed.
Do you believe that when the blue jay or another bird sings and the body is trembling, that is a signal that people are coming or something important is about to happen?

Lostwave

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 75
Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
« Reply #209 on: May 01, 2018, 12:38:32 PM »
Everbank letters came off the stadium yesterday.  Unfortunately they went into a dumpster.  I wanted to grab one, but they are huge.  Even the little letter r was taller than 6'.

I have some photos I will try to post.