Solving SJTC's Traffic

[thelakelander]

Right now, that particular shopping center has eight different entrances to Town Center Parkway. Town Center Parkway allows for auto connectivity to either Gate, St. Johns Bluff or I-295. There's also a pedestrian connection to Gate Parkway under JTB behind Markets at Town Center.

Would it be nice to have more of a gridded street network at SJTC, Avenues or OPM? Sure.  Is it worth something upwards of $50 to $100 million? Right now, no way. Years down the road.....who knows. With that said, presently, it's obvious the shopping center does just fine "as is", meaning don't expect the developer to front something like that. Without something larger on the table (like a proposal for massive infill around it), don't expect COJ or JEA to toss in much either.

There's congestion but it's definitely not hurting business in the area. Like Millenia in Orlando, for everyone who won't go because of congestion, there's more that will deal with the extra five to ten minutes it may take to get from the parking lot to JTB, heading west on Town Center Parkway. Plus, you'll always have those that will access the area opposite the herd (ex. from the east instead of the west). There's no real congestion accessing the area from I-295.

[SightseerLounge]

I never realize that pedestrian underpass is back there until someone says something!

I'm glad you mentioned that, Lakelander! The sidewalks in that area (in all of Jacksonville) need to be on both sides of the street to encourage walking. This is just weird to me! Its the same situation in Oakleaf Town Center. That's what I mean by poor planning!

[TimmyB]

How about this, as a much more affordable solution:

Florida is in love with U-Turns.  It is simply a fact of life down here that this is the way things are done.  Yet, Town Center Parkway has about 10 traffic lights in one mile, to get all of that traffic in and out.  What if there were only a couple of lights (Big Island and ??) and for the entire rest of the strip from Gate to 295, there was nothing but turnaround points?  (I realize there may need to be lights on those but far shorter cycle times than currently required for full intersections.)  You want to shop over there, at that store on the left?  You drive past it, do your U-turn, and turn right into the place. 

I've been to many shopping areas where this is the norm.  There are no 4-cycle lights, where you sit for an eternity.  This would require minimum construction cost and would have to be better than what is currently there.

[SightseerLounge]

How about this, as a much more affordable solution:

Florida is in love with U-Turns.  It is simply a fact of life down here that this is the way things are done.  Yet, Town Center Parkway has about 10 traffic lights in one mile, to get all of that traffic in and out.  What if there were only a couple of lights (Big Island and ??) and for the entire rest of the strip from Gate to 295, there was nothing but turnaround points?  (I realize there may need to be lights on those but far shorter cycle times than currently required for full intersections.)  You want to shop over there, at that store on the left?  You drive past it, do your U-turn, and turn right into the place. 

I've been to many shopping areas where this is the norm.  There are no 4-cycle lights, where you sit for an eternity.  This would require minimum construction cost and would have to be better than what is currently there

I do that with the current set up of Town Center. Its like this at Blanding and Argyle Forest! Going South, there is a U-Turn signal to turn back to Youngerman Cir. where the stores are located! I think Atlantic and Kernan is set up like this after the overpass to get to Wal-Mart!

[jax_hwy_engineer]

Those express lanes aren't really going to help. They are still on I-295! Adding express lanes just makes the commute a little faster for those willing to pay the toll. It's an illusion of progress. Its still concentrated just in the I-295 right-of-way! Adding a few connecting streets, at least, gives someone another way out in case something goes wrong!

Express Lanes alleviate short-trip interstate traffic while promoting the free-flow of long-trip interstate traffic, and adding additional interchanges with connecting streets just adds more turbulence points for traffic to get slowed down. Express lanes aren't perfect, but they are a step in the right direction and are a better choice than just adding more lanes.

[jlmann]

i have solved this issue.  for myself.  i only go to the 1000000000 locations in jax that are better than sjtc.

we've got a lot better things to worry about than how bad traffic is at THE MALL.  the developers overbuilt and continue to do so.  let them figure it out and pay for it

[urbanlibertarian]

Dismantle the Skyway downtown, transport the pieces to SJTC and re-assemble it there.

[Nat_Vanish79]

From my perspective, adding another road isn't learning from our mistakes of the past. It's repeating them. You can't out-road build congestion. I grew up in Central Florida. Congestion is all relative. I-4 is a parking lot right up until you sit in traffic in I-85 in Atlanta, I-5 in LA or I-90 in Chicago. At that point, I-4 congestion feels more like driving on the Hart Bridge Expressway.  In the case of Millenia, take John Young Parkway and come in the back way. Same goes for SJTC. Enter from I-295 instead of Gate Parkway.

Anyway, the ultimate mistake is most of our suburban areas should not have been designed the way they were. It's a mistake that dates back to the mid-20th century. A popular shopping center and auto congestion in the vicinity is just a microcosm of a larger issue where transportation infrastructure investments and land use policies aren't well integrated to support one another. Adding a $100 million secondary road isn't going to fix the issue and isn't a fair improvement forced upon the developer (who is not responsible for all the traffic) or taxpayers. As the area develops out, it's going fill up just like Town Center Parkway.  The solution is a combination of embracing some congestion, modifying land use to add a lot more density, and alternative modes of citywide mobility, that also tie into the area.

One of the better examples in the state is probably Dadeland Mall. Its accessible to multiple roads and they all still back up a lot more than anything we can imagine happening with Town Center Parkway. At least there, you have the option of not driving there at all. You can access it via two Metrorail stations and both stations have a ton of TOD, giving people the option of living walking and playing, if they desire.

I completely agree with your point that simply adding a new road will not solve any problems. And what I would like to emphasize again is “alternative modes of citywide mobility”. The parking inefficiency is one of the largest problems that actually cause traffic congestion. Simply adding parking space is proven to be inefficient as well.

In London they have implemented smart parking lot sensor system through near city-wide LPWAN (low-power wide-area network) developed by Nwave. http://www.weightless.org/news/first-weightlessn-network-goes-live-in-london-nwave-and-arkessa-partner here is a link to the article.

If you ever been to London, they you know how devastating the traffic can be there. The two cities that can be worse, in my personal experience are LA and Moscow. I think that implementing technological solutions that are aimed at actually boosting the efficiency of infrastructure is the way to go, since we cannot simply redo the infrastructure from ground up.

[Sonic101]

I think Town Center Pkwy is a good candidate to have "Michigan lefts". As much as I loathe them sometimes, they do work well.

It's where to go left you have to turn right and then turn around at a crossover.

[Kerry]

Dismantle the Skyway downtown, transport the pieces to SJTC and re-assemble it there.

Not far from realistic.  A skyway style system along Gate Parkway from Southside Blvd to I-295 with a spur along Town Center Drive to UNF seems like a good idea.

[marcuscnelson]

I think Town Center Pkwy is a good candidate to have "Michigan lefts". As much as I loathe them sometimes, they do work well.

It's where to go left you have to turn right and then turn around at a crossover.

Does something keep you from going straight and then just making a left at the intersection, instead of turning right?

[ProjectMaximus]

I think Town Center Pkwy is a good candidate to have "Michigan lefts". As much as I loathe them sometimes, they do work well.

It's where to go left you have to turn right and then turn around at a crossover.

Does something keep you from going straight and then just making a left at the intersection, instead of turning right?

The law? lol..."no left turn" signs. Basically, the intersection is only for through traffic...you eliminate left turns from the light cycle and increase safety for people who dont know how to make a left at a busy intersection. Basically everybody wins except the people who need to make a left, they have to drive farther and it takes longer. That's the tradeoff. But I dont know if it would actually help with SJTC traffic flows or not.

[Lostwave]

Signage and traffic lights.  The only way you could make a left is to wait for traffic to clear in the opposite direction, and with huge no turns signs, you will learn quickly not to do it.

In New Jersey they are called Jughandles.  All turns exit before the intersection and make a left or right on the smaller cross street.
Like here:
https://www.google.com/maps/@39.9609602,-74.9308812,182m/data=!3m1!1e3

Here is the street view.
https://www.google.com/maps/@39.9608084,-74.9316001,3a,75y,77.42h,80.69t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sPzAABJ1YIrKMlc_5JiT_gg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

And from the cross street:
https://www.google.com/maps/@39.960867,-74.930504,3a,75y,276.66h,73.12t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sSip6qPyGl90T2HOqfPANOA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

Once you enter the jughandle, you can make an effective left, right or u-turn back on to the main highway.
It really only works when people get used to it as they are in Jersey.  But once they get used to it, it works pretty well.

[Josh]

Signage and traffic lights.  The only way you could make a left is to wait for traffic to clear in the opposite direction, and with huge no turns signs, you will learn quickly not to do it.

In New Jersey they are called Jughandles.  All turns exit before the intersection and make a left or right on the smaller cross street.
Like here:
https://www.google.com/maps/@39.9609602,-74.9308812,182m/data=!3m1!1e3

Here is the street view.
https://www.google.com/maps/@39.9608084,-74.9316001,3a,75y,77.42h,80.69t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sPzAABJ1YIrKMlc_5JiT_gg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

And from the cross street:
https://www.google.com/maps/@39.960867,-74.930504,3a,75y,276.66h,73.12t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sSip6qPyGl90T2HOqfPANOA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

Once you enter the jughandle, you can make an effective left, right or u-turn back on to the main highway.
It really only works when people get used to it as they are in Jersey.  But once they get used to it, it works pretty well.

That's interesting, but I would think that unless the cross street doesn't have much traffic, it's going to be messy for those turning left on the "ramp" since there only needs to be 2-3 cars at that light to prevent you from having enough room to enter that lane.

[Adam White]

Signage and traffic lights.  The only way you could make a left is to wait for traffic to clear in the opposite direction, and with huge no turns signs, you will learn quickly not to do it.

In New Jersey they are called Jughandles.  All turns exit before the intersection and make a left or right on the smaller cross street.
Like here:
https://www.google.com/maps/@39.9609602,-74.9308812,182m/data=!3m1!1e3

Here is the street view.
https://www.google.com/maps/@39.9608084,-74.9316001,3a,75y,77.42h,80.69t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sPzAABJ1YIrKMlc_5JiT_gg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

And from the cross street:
https://www.google.com/maps/@39.960867,-74.930504,3a,75y,276.66h,73.12t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sSip6qPyGl90T2HOqfPANOA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

Once you enter the jughandle, you can make an effective left, right or u-turn back on to the main highway.
It really only works when people get used to it as they are in Jersey.  But once they get used to it, it works pretty well.

Maybe I'm missing something, but those don't look like they facilitate left turns. It looks like you turn left at the intersection.

Edit: I think I get it now. But the drivers on the cross street turn left at the intersection, right correct?