Author Topic: Cybermining for cryptocurrency  (Read 7225 times)

spuwho

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Cybermining for cryptocurrency
« on: June 05, 2017, 07:22:06 PM »
A trend that started not long after Bitcoins were created, was the idea of "mining" for bitcoins using ones graphics card in their computer.  Needless to say it had to be a relatively powerful graphics card to be able to find coin.

A couple of years ago the Chinese developed specialized chips (ASIC's) that were designed for nothing but bitcoin mining and the use of graphics card declined. But Bitcoin responded in making their currency harder to mine.

However, with the new generation of Radeon graphics cards from AMD, mining for Bitcoin and Litecoin is causing a literal stampede for their latest products. Stores, both online and retail are struggling to keep inventory of the latest releases. The card (which can be doubled up using Crossfire) has been so much more effective at mining, that people are trying to make money off their cards.  Etherium's price has more than tripled and people are responding to the "new gold".

The capability of ones graphics card is measured in cost per hash it can calculate and how power efficient it can perform said calculations.

It sounds an awful lot like trying to day trade with derivatives in the stock market, but it is growing in popularity.



remc86007

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Re: Cybermining for cryptocurrency
« Reply #1 on: June 05, 2017, 09:55:29 PM »
It's infuriating that I'm in Jacksonville and too busy with work to drive over to Tallahassee to pickup my PC with an RX480 in it. I could sell it right now for twice what I paid for it!

BridgeTroll

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Re: Cybermining for cryptocurrency
« Reply #2 on: June 06, 2017, 05:29:59 AM »
Fraud
In a boat at sea one of the men began to bore a hole in the bottom of the boat. On being remonstrating with, he answered, "I am only boring under my own seat." "Yes," said his companions, "but when the sea rushes in we shall all be drowned with you."

Jim

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Re: Cybermining for cryptocurrency
« Reply #3 on: June 06, 2017, 08:56:06 AM »
We have 22 of these here in my data center.


BridgeTroll

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In a boat at sea one of the men began to bore a hole in the bottom of the boat. On being remonstrating with, he answered, "I am only boring under my own seat." "Yes," said his companions, "but when the sea rushes in we shall all be drowned with you."

blfair

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Re: Cybermining for cryptocurrency
« Reply #5 on: June 07, 2017, 09:34:24 PM »
We have 22 of these here in my data center.

I've heard from someone pretty well versed in this stuff that it's impossible to compete with the Chinese bitcoin mines because of electricity costs... is someone actually making money with those things still?

remc86007

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Re: Cybermining for cryptocurrency
« Reply #6 on: June 07, 2017, 10:01:54 PM »
^I don't know about the profitability of Bitcoin, but many of the other cryptocurrencies like etherium are very profitable still.

Jim

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Re: Cybermining for cryptocurrency
« Reply #7 on: June 08, 2017, 10:38:29 AM »
We have 22 of these here in my data center.

I've heard from someone pretty well versed in this stuff that it's impossible to compete with the Chinese bitcoin mines because of electricity costs... is someone actually making money with those things still?
It's not a competition but any place that has lower power consumption costs will have a greater return on investment as your operational costs will be lower.

The rate of mining a coin is a technical factor of the hardware being used so there are no geographical advantages in that sense.

And yes, you can still make money with them just not at the rate that caused the initial rush back in the beginning.

blfair

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Re: Cybermining for cryptocurrency
« Reply #8 on: June 08, 2017, 08:29:49 PM »
It's not a competition but any place that has lower power consumption costs will have a greater return on investment as your operational costs will be lower.

The rate of mining a coin is a technical factor of the hardware being used so there are no geographical advantages in that sense.

And yes, you can still make money with them just not at the rate that caused the initial rush back in the beginning.

Right -- I mean, I mean in terms of profitably mining regular bitcoin, it is hard to compete with places with cheap energy. And it's more than just the hardware being used. In 2010 when a friend of mine was big into this, he was getting 50 bitcoins per block, and mining a block every hour or so with the first GPU based mining client (which he wrote). The same hardware today would probably take lifetimes to make 50 bitcoins.

Over time, the # of bitcoins per block has dropped (it halves every 210,000 blocks mined). Also, the difficult of mining blocks has increased -- from a difficulty factor of 1 or 2 back in 2010, to over 678 billion today (you are much much less likely to calculate a valid hash).

So it's gotten to the point where your electricity needs to be amazingly cheap for it to be worth the trouble. I noticed the graphic at the beginning of this is pitching cloud mining -- why would someone rent out their machine that spits out gold instead of just picking up the gold themselves?

Jim

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Re: Cybermining for cryptocurrency
« Reply #9 on: June 09, 2017, 10:07:23 AM »
It's not a competition but any place that has lower power consumption costs will have a greater return on investment as your operational costs will be lower.

The rate of mining a coin is a technical factor of the hardware being used so there are no geographical advantages in that sense.

And yes, you can still make money with them just not at the rate that caused the initial rush back in the beginning.

Right -- I mean, I mean in terms of profitably mining regular bitcoin, it is hard to compete with places with cheap energy. And it's more than just the hardware being used. In 2010 when a friend of mine was big into this, he was getting 50 bitcoins per block, and mining a block every hour or so with the first GPU based mining client (which he wrote). The same hardware today would probably take lifetimes to make 50 bitcoins.

Over time, the # of bitcoins per block has dropped (it halves every 210,000 blocks mined). Also, the difficult of mining blocks has increased -- from a difficulty factor of 1 or 2 back in 2010, to over 678 billion today (you are much much less likely to calculate a valid hash).

So it's gotten to the point where your electricity needs to be amazingly cheap for it to be worth the trouble. I noticed the graphic at the beginning of this is pitching cloud mining -- why would someone rent out their machine that spits out gold instead of just picking up the gold themselves?
That's what I mean by a technical factor of the hardware.  China's hardware isn't any different than ours.   They have to buy new hardware that can calculate more terahashes per second just as we do when the block chain is recalculated.

The difference is faster return on investments because of lower operational costs.  They do not obtain bitcoins any faster than we do.  They just pay off their hardware a little faster.

As for cheap electricity itself, you do need to ensure you are not paying more in power use than your rate of mining.  This is both a location (cost for electricity) and a hardware efficiency factor.  You might have an ASIC with purpose built hardware (as those in my picture above) that processes an amazing 20 terahashes per second but if it's pulling 5000 watts, you might not make profit even in China.

You could get a return on investment with an AntMiner S9 in about a year.

RobertObrien74

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Re: Cybermining for cryptocurrency
« Reply #10 on: February 09, 2018, 07:49:22 AM »
Just to add my 2 cents: I'm ok with mining and the whole cryptocurrency thing, but why does it have to be "mined" on a graphics processor of a PC? The prices of even the most basic graphics cards went through the roof in the last months, effectively preventing me from upgrading an old computer of my kids. This is just crazy.

remc86007

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Re: Cybermining for cryptocurrency
« Reply #11 on: February 09, 2018, 08:40:48 AM »
^Not to mention ram prices and the fact that SSD prices haven't dropped significantly in years... I think PC gaming is dying a slow death before our eyes. It costs over $1,000 to build a PC with equivalent power to an Xbox one x. And what you get for your money is a system that often gets games later or not at all, often requires graphics driver updates to run new games, and almost invariably doesn't have HDR support.

Snufflee

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Re: Cybermining for cryptocurrency
« Reply #12 on: February 09, 2018, 12:31:41 PM »
Just to add my 2 cents: I'm ok with mining and the whole cryptocurrency thing, but why does it have to be "mined" on a graphics processor of a PC? The prices of even the most basic graphics cards went through the roof in the last months, effectively preventing me from upgrading an old computer of my kids. This is just crazy.

It is mined on a GPU because you can eliminate the processing bottlenecks of a CPU. Hence forth you can dedicate all the computational power and GDDR5 memory of a GPU to mining. 
And so it goes

Snufflee

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Re: Cybermining for cryptocurrency
« Reply #13 on: February 09, 2018, 12:44:36 PM »
^Not to mention ram prices and the fact that SSD prices haven't dropped significantly in years... I think PC gaming is dying a slow death before our eyes. It costs over $1,000 to build a PC with equivalent power to an Xbox one x. And what you get for your money is a system that often gets games later or not at all, often requires graphics driver updates to run new games, and almost invariably doesn't have HDR support.

This is not true, PC Gaming has experienced a Renaissance recently as gamers have realized that the price to pixel performance shen comparing a console to a PC is not even close.

Your statement on the Xbox One X is just false. The specs on paper look great but you have to look beyond the paper specs.

1)  The CPU cores of the One X Jaguar cores at 2.3 GHz (8 cores) is equivalent to a 1/3 the performance of the standard AMD Ryzen consumer chipset or if you are an Intel fan this processor set in the One X is equivalent to a 2 year old Intel Core I3 processor.

2) The way the GPU is set up is equivalent to a Overclocked Nvidia GTX 1060 with a bit more memory for 4K bandwidth purposes. Sounds great but many AAA titles for consoles are not developed with pure 4K in mind.

3) Spec wise that GPU set up with higher bandwidth and more GDDR5 memory looks great but bottlenecks are created since that extra oompf would get eaten up by games that do a lot of math. The GPU on the One X comes with 12 GB of GDDR5, only 9 will be available to game developers, the other 3 ends up being shared with the CPU to perform complex computations.. Think games like Destiny 2 or the Division that have RPG elements requiring client server calculations for damage, defense, healing.. etc, etc. Because of this many of the most popular RPG's and Online COOP 's will only run at 30 FPS at 4K on a console. This bottle neck is what is driving gamers back into the PC market.. if you subtract the trends of RAM and GPU's being artificially inflated by crypto miners then you could build a heck of a lot more versatile desktop PC for 1000 compared to a one trick pony Xbox One X. 
And so it goes

Tacachale

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Re: Cybermining for cryptocurrency
« Reply #14 on: February 09, 2018, 02:30:32 PM »
^Not to mention ram prices and the fact that SSD prices haven't dropped significantly in years... I think PC gaming is dying a slow death before our eyes. It costs over $1,000 to build a PC with equivalent power to an Xbox one x. And what you get for your money is a system that often gets games later or not at all, often requires graphics driver updates to run new games, and almost invariably doesn't have HDR support.

This is not true, PC Gaming has experienced a Renaissance recently as gamers have realized that the price to pixel performance shen comparing a console to a PC is not even close.

Your statement on the Xbox One X is just false. The specs on paper look great but you have to look beyond the paper specs.

1)  The CPU cores of the One X Jaguar cores at 2.3 GHz (8 cores) is equivalent to a 1/3 the performance of the standard AMD Ryzen consumer chipset or if you are an Intel fan this processor set in the One X is equivalent to a 2 year old Intel Core I3 processor.

2) The way the GPU is set up is equivalent to a Overclocked Nvidia GTX 1060 with a bit more memory for 4K bandwidth purposes. Sounds great but many AAA titles for consoles are not developed with pure 4K in mind.

3) Spec wise that GPU set up with higher bandwidth and more GDDR5 memory looks great but bottlenecks are created since that extra oompf would get eaten up by games that do a lot of math. The GPU on the One X comes with 12 GB of GDDR5, only 9 will be available to game developers, the other 3 ends up being shared with the CPU to perform complex computations.. Think games like Destiny 2 or the Division that have RPG elements requiring client server calculations for damage, defense, healing.. etc, etc. Because of this many of the most popular RPG's and Online COOP 's will only run at 30 FPS at 4K on a console. This bottle neck is what is driving gamers back into the PC market.. if you subtract the trends of RAM and GPU's being artificially inflated by crypto miners then you could build a heck of a lot more versatile desktop PC for 1000 compared to a one trick pony Xbox One X. 

PC game sales are definitely down, and have been behind consoles and now mobile for years. It'll probably continue to lose market share as more people shift to laptops, tablets, and computer replacers, and as Steam continues to grow on consoles and mobile. Though PC gaming as a whole won't ever go away as long as there are people out there who prefer it.

https://newzoo.com/insights/articles/new-gaming-boom-newzoo-ups-its-2017-global-games-market-estimate-to-116-0bn-growing-to-143-5bn-in-2020/
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