Author Topic: City wants to ticket on Nights and Weekends  (Read 21629 times)

apvbguy

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Re: City wants to ticket on Nights and Weekends
« Reply #75 on: September 11, 2008, 01:15:17 PM »


Yank the meters, regulate the times and jack up the garage rates... simple. In the end, the city recovers much more as parking division employees can be reassigned as community service officers, or given other choices, and the division phased out and absorbed by JTA. JTA could then regulate the garage rates so that parking in the urban edge and using transit, would be a savings over parking in the core. We then earn extra income from tax paying and thriving downtown businesses once again.

Meanwhile, with limited hourly, 2 or 3 hour parking, the shop keepers could knock some doors and windows back into the blank walls of the downtown canyons. Besides, I miss that "STAND AND SNACK" Chicken Salad sandwich, the shoe shop and the juice guy...


this isn't well thought out, you would still need parking enforcement people, someone needs to watch how long the cars are parked. again your adversarial view towards cars hinders any validity of your ideas, chasing cars away is chasing people, potential customers away. The idea is to compete with the strip malls in the burbs and
by making it more difficult for people to park is not an attraction. I know you love transit but for most people mass transit is something to be endured and people rarely embrace it when going out on the town.
That said, a viable transit system could lure the people who work in the core to it, but it needs to be efficient and economically viable in order to compete with the comfort and flexibility of driving to work.

unfortunately those overly romantic views of the past are gone and more than likely they'll never return
it would be wiser to focus on intermodal solutions than to try and demonize autos like you do

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apvbguy

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Re: City wants to ticket on Nights and Weekends
« Reply #76 on: September 11, 2008, 01:20:54 PM »
If they need to raise money, then the obvious thing to do is to raise a tax on every parking space in a single level parking lot.

Those parking lots become 'undevelopable' because the owners are already pulling free money off of them by having torn down the buildings and then collecting free, untraceable money.

If the city of Jacksonville was serious about any of this, they would immediately institute a dollar a month tax on every parking space in these iniquitous old lots, and provide both cash for the city as well as an incentive to find a higher profit use for the land.

you are right and you are wrong, I can't be certain but every urban property owner I've known only uses parking lots on their property as a temporary use. If the properties in the core are being used as parking lots it is because of a few possible reasons like being unable to get permits, trying to assemble a larger tract to build on or constructing a building doesn't make economic sense. You could add a parking tax per space, but that might be fought by the lot owners, the properties already should be paying property taxes. You can be sure that if the property owners could make more money by building on their lots than running a parking lot, they would build but right now there is not enough of a critical mass in the core to spur new building there.
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apvbguy

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Re: City wants to ticket on Nights and Weekends
« Reply #77 on: September 11, 2008, 03:40:51 PM »
Apvbguy.

Thanks for the input.

If I can elaborate a little on Ocklawaha's post I would like to make a couple of points that have been made ad infinitum in earlier phases of our ongoing discussion of parking in downtown.

I don't think Ocklawaha or any of us on this board (with the exception of Michael Llewyn, the noted urban policy theorist) are anti car in the slightest.

It bears keeping in mind that the parking conversation is what destroyed the majority of our downtown.

There are several wonderful photos elsewhere on the site (perhaps Lake or Lunican can be prevailed upon to repost them in this thread) which show how densely built out the downtown was at one time.

However, as the majority of people began using cars, the question of where to store all of them started becoming an insurmountable problem.

Mayor Burns temporarily solved the problem by building municipally owned parking lots out over the river.  While this worked for a couple of decades, as the spread of autos coincided with urban sprawl led to the majority of the retail and entertainment customers that used the centralized downtown coming from OUTSIDE the downtown area---the capacity for parking could not keep up with the demand.

So the solution shifted to building garages, the history of which has been a fiasco.  If the city had actually delivered on Municipal multi story garages 30 years ago, it would have worked.  Instead, gross incompetence and welched deals left behind the smoking ruins of multiple deals while the suburban malls began to offer free parking much closer to the suburbs which were spreading out exponentially.

So then the city tried several disastrous do-overs of the downtown.

Burns, and Godbold decided that Downtown could compete by being the corporate/administrative/large arena events center and leave the retail and entertainment to the burbs.

Renovation after renovation project led by the city led to wholesale destruction of the fabric of downtown's business base.

The entire time, the Parking enforcement people pursued a policy based on the idea that since there were only 20 thousand parking spaces (at the time) and 100 thousand people needing to use them, that it would only allow each visitor an average of an hour and a half downtown.  Turning and burning so that the shops and businesses could get the maximum amount of traffic.

What this led to was a series of draconian laws which were based on the extreme competition for spaces.

By the 1980s, the strategy which our blundering city fathers decided on was to put all the parking on the peripheral areas of downtown and use mass transit to get people from their cars to their destinations.

However, starting with the Hemming Park Disaster, the River City Fizzle, the complete razing of La Villa and the massive failure of retail at the Landing, downtown emptied completely out.

The corporatae people all moved to the Southside and the retail/entertainment left for the regional hubs/malls.

The towers began to empty and the remaining buildings became a tax liability.

It was literally cheaper to tear them down and turn them into a profit producing parking lot than it was to maintain them and pay the increased property taxes levied to support the very institutions (like the DDA) which were actually destroying the downtown.

For some reason, Parking never got the Memo, and were still trying to produce the same amount of revenues despite the decline in visitors.   In 14 years the number of people working downtown went from 80 thousand people to today's 18 thousand.  

But the enforcement people never slowed down a bit.  they were like a swarm of fleas that did pretty well when the place used to be a kennel, but now were left with only a couple of stray dogs left behind.

For years they simply harrased and completely destroyed the customer base of every new shop that opened or relocated downtown.  As soon as a new place would open, there would be a whole new crop of customers parking in the area.

The Parking parasites glutted themselves on the new customers until they stopped coming.  No one could afford to pay increasing fees every time they came downtown.  They went elsewhere.  They new shop would close, and the whole cycle would repeat itself at a slower and slower rate.

This went on, with the downtown most abandoned until the miraculous return to the historic neighborhoods began to happen.

For decades the neighborhoods surrounding downtown had been ghettos.  Poverty, high crime, and no real base of customers that would support a retail/entertainment district.

First Riverside, then San Marco, then Five Points then finally Springfield and Durkeeville began to revive.

Last to the ballgame, residential began to be built downtown. Beginning with a highly attractive Loft Scene in the early 2000s, the hip living environs encourage resident to come to The Carling, 11 east, the Metropolitan, Berkman Plaza and a few other places.

Now, for the first time there are enough of a nearby base in the demographics to support a vibrant downtown.

Except that the downtown can't get anything off of the ground because of the parasites at parking sucking the life out of every new place that comes along and closing them down before a real scene can come along.

Which brings us to the present.   Through study and the stunning failures and mistakes of the past, the people on this board are determined that this time we do it right, make it sustainable, and not repeat the mistakes of the past.  After all they started as solutions.

Ocklawaha doesnt mean to be anti car.  But the whole thing works better with a transit system in place.  It helps you plan for a successful future.

JAX is just a microcosm of just about every other urban area in the US. The facts are that the people want cars, they will use their cars and they will go where using their cars is not impediment and trying to change that fact is like pissing in the wind.
transit can have a place in JAX, but transit is only a part of the larger picture, one reason the core is suffering and outlying areas are thriving is because the suburbs have the roads and parking that make auto use easy and efficient while the core has not been able to efficiently mesh autos into it's mix.
whatever the historical reasons are means little in the push for the future of the core. If the core continues to be unable to adapt it's future is not good
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Lunican

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Re: City wants to ticket on Nights and Weekends
« Reply #78 on: September 11, 2008, 03:44:05 PM »
So you are in agreement that the city should not ticket on nights and weekends.

BridgeTroll

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Re: City wants to ticket on Nights and Weekends
« Reply #79 on: September 11, 2008, 03:50:26 PM »
Or for that matter remove all meters so that...
Quote
roads and parking that make auto use easy and efficient
for downtown.  Because we want to...
Quote
efficiently mesh autos into it's mix.
In a boat at sea one of the men began to bore a hole in the bottom of the boat. On being remonstrating with, he answered, "I am only boring under my own seat." "Yes," said his companions, "but when the sea rushes in we shall all be drowned with you."

apvbguy

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Re: City wants to ticket on Nights and Weekends
« Reply #80 on: September 11, 2008, 04:08:28 PM »
So you are in agreement that the city should not ticket on nights and weekends.
if you are responding to me, no I think if the city wants to regulate street parking on nights and weekends it's ok providing reasonable time limits are used, if 30 or 60 minute limits are used then it is a bad plan
When you put clowns in charge, don't be surprised when a circus breaks out

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apvbguy

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Re: City wants to ticket on Nights and Weekends
« Reply #81 on: September 11, 2008, 04:09:12 PM »
apvbguy.

Im sorry, I don't see where anyone has spoken about getting rid of cars?

Are you sure you are posting on the correct thread?

The point is that the additional taxes levied only on downtown car users are killing all growth in that area.

As far as I can tell you are making a point that no one has raised in a way that has nothing to do with the thread.

read for comprehension
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thelakelander

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Re: City wants to ticket on Nights and Weekends
« Reply #82 on: September 11, 2008, 04:22:54 PM »
So you are in agreement that the city should not ticket on nights and weekends.
if you are responding to me, no I think if the city wants to regulate street parking on nights and weekends it's ok providing reasonable time limits are used, if 30 or 60 minute limits are used then it is a bad plan

So you're for the city placing parking meters and regulating on-street parking on nights and weekends all across town or just downtown?
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kirkerer

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Re: City wants to ticket on Nights and Weekends
« Reply #83 on: September 11, 2008, 04:41:59 PM »
I know a solution that works pretty well !



Ocklawaha

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Re: City wants to ticket on Nights and Weekends
« Reply #84 on: September 11, 2008, 07:38:59 PM »
Have no fear, we'll start with a regional transit authority, then we'll post the $5.oo per hour, meters on every street in Ponte Vedra!

OCKLAWAHA

apvbguy

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Re: City wants to ticket on Nights and Weekends
« Reply #85 on: September 11, 2008, 09:15:23 PM »
Have no fear, we'll start with a regional transit authority, then we'll post the $5.oo per hour, meters on every street in Ponte Vedra!

OCKLAWAHA

now use the classist argument, my you are way too predictable!

one good thing about $5 meters is that it will lessen the whining over beach access because instead of crying that there is no parking people will cry about it being too expensive, putting in meters like that might help to lower my property taxes, maybe you're onto to something!
« Last Edit: September 11, 2008, 09:18:44 PM by apvbguy »
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Ocklawaha

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Re: City wants to ticket on Nights and Weekends
« Reply #86 on: September 11, 2008, 11:32:36 PM »
Only I'm as serious as YOU ARE... hee hee, let's just put em all over the metro.

NO ESCAPE! And Toll booths for anyone entering the area with an out of Metro Tag. Make JTA Transit FREE to all and fund the whole city with new rail, bus etc... I love it.

Now would you PLEASE answer Mr. Dare over on my Right!


OCKLAWAHA
gee, I'm I REALLY related to Marx?

DetroitInJAX

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Re: City wants to ticket on Nights and Weekends
« Reply #87 on: September 12, 2008, 12:53:13 AM »
Welcome to Jacksonville, Bold New City of the South.

Even Detroit can get this right....

Did you all hear that?  DETROIT, the anus of the US, is making more progress than our fair city....... AND the mayor just resigned in disgrace.

What a load of crap, honestly.  I've emailed my councilmember.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2008, 12:54:59 AM by DetroitInJAX »