Author Topic: Suburban Infill: Atlantic Crossings  (Read 12464 times)

gatorback

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Re: Suburban Infill: Atlantic Crossings
« Reply #15 on: August 05, 2008, 01:18:51 PM »
You guys are killing me...funny posts.  This living looks like the Back Bay in Boston.  Sure, there are cars.  Not everybody wants to live, or can afford to live, at a TOD mixed use new development.  Would retail work on the bottom floor there?  Nope.  Nice parking however.  If I was transient and wanted to be centrally located, I'd consider this place. 
« Last Edit: August 05, 2008, 01:21:05 PM by gatorback »
'As a sinner I am truly conscious of having often offended my Creator and I beg him to forgive me, but as a Queen and Sovereign, I am aware of no fault or offence for which I have to render account to anyone here below.'   Mary, queen of Scots to her jailer, Sir Amyas Paulet; October 1586

Jason

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Re: Suburban Infill: Atlantic Crossings
« Reply #16 on: August 05, 2008, 01:39:58 PM »
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@archiphreak
I wouldnt go grocery shopping on a bicycle in Arlington too, but that particular neighbourhood isint bad for bicycle travel. I know because I live 3 miles from it and I ride to the movie theather on some weekends. I disagree with the glorification of Atlantic Crossing as a walkable neighbourhood and I am with you on that. These so called attempts should get no praises.


So would you rather see the typical apartment complex layout in that location? 

I agree that this development is not the perfect example of smart walkable growth but it is most definitely a refreshing step in the right direction.

Abhishek

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Re: Suburban Infill: Atlantic Crossings
« Reply #17 on: August 05, 2008, 02:17:36 PM »
@ Jason
What direction is that? Atlantic Crossing does not resemble a 'walkable' neighbourhood as it has wide sidewalks and a different style of parking. The parking is at the back to cater to foot traffic but there isint a lot of locations for the foot traffic to go to.
A regular old condo complex would be just as good.

The opposition is not towards the building of the neighbourhood but towards the claim that it is a walkable neighbourhood. The claim has been made in the post. The website of Atlantic Crossing portrays this idea as well as you can walk to the town center etc. Here is a good website to see what makes a neighbourhood walkable: http://www.walkscore.com/walkable-neighborhoods.shtml

I think we should stop trying to simulate urban-downtown-like environments in an Edge City. To truly create an urban environment, developers and the city need to come together towards one common vision, not an individual effort like that of Atlantic Crossing's.
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thelakelander

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Re: Suburban Infill: Atlantic Crossings
« Reply #18 on: August 05, 2008, 02:35:01 PM »
@ Jason
What direction is that? Atlantic Crossing does not resemble a 'walkable' neighbourhood as it has wide sidewalks and a different style of parking. The parking is at the back to cater to foot traffic but there isint a lot of locations for the foot traffic to go to.
A regular old condo complex would be just as good.

The opposition is not towards the building of the neighbourhood but towards the claim that it is a walkable neighbourhood. The claim has been made in the post. The website of Atlantic Crossing portrays this idea as well as you can walk to the town center etc. Here is a good website to see what makes a neighbourhood walkable: http://www.walkscore.com/walkable-neighborhoods.shtml

I think we should stop trying to simulate urban-downtown-like environments in an Edge City. To truly create an urban environment, developers and the city need to come together towards one common vision, not an individual effort like that of Atlantic Crossing's.

While I do believe that Atlantic Crossing's layout alone makes it better than the typical gated automobile oriented apartment complex in suburban Jacksonville, I agree 100% with the rest of this post.  As evidenced by Tapestry Park's mostly empty retail center, its going to take more than an individual effort to turn things around for the better.
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Abhishek

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Re: Suburban Infill: Atlantic Crossings
« Reply #19 on: August 05, 2008, 02:36:47 PM »
i'll ride down there this evening and see how it feels.
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Developing101

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Re: Suburban Infill: Atlantic Crossings
« Reply #20 on: August 05, 2008, 02:46:41 PM »
Cant' we all just get along???  8)

Yes - the architect made strides to make a better site plan.  But, the simple fact is that in this contractor driven marketplace of Jacksonville, the "value engineered" design by the contractor almost always wins.  If you can cut a corner without much notice and put more money in your pocket, that is the name of the game in JAX.  More power needs to be given to the architect to look out of the owner's best interest. 

To all architects out there - please, let's put much more emphasis on holding to your guns and stand up for your specifications.  Don't let these contractors go behind your back and convince the owner into a "savings" and alter your design.  The architect is supposed to be the top of the food chain.  Let's step up on that darn ladder here in JAX.

rjp2008

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Re: Suburban Infill: Atlantic Crossings
« Reply #21 on: August 05, 2008, 02:48:42 PM »
The central park of Kendall Pointe in Arlington is a nice example of how to develop people-friendly open space.

cline

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Re: Suburban Infill: Atlantic Crossings
« Reply #22 on: August 05, 2008, 02:56:16 PM »
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Yes - the architect made strides to make a better site plan.  But, the simple fact is that in this contractor driven marketplace of Jacksonville, the "value engineered" design by the contractor almost always wins.  If you can cut a corner without much notice and put more money in your pocket, that is the name of the game in JAX.  More power needs to be given to the architect to look out of the owner's best interest.

To all architects out there - please, let's put much more emphasis on holding to your guns and stand up for your specifications.  Don't let these contractors go behind your back and convince the owner into a "savings" and alter your design.  The architect is supposed to be the top of the food chain.  Let's step up on that darn ladder here in JAX.

You have to remember that the residences still need to be affordable.  Perhaps that is part of the reason that these contractors "cut corners" as you call it.  The architect could come up with a fantastic site plan, but if the site plan requires each to sell for $500,000, you will have a hard time finding buyers at that price point on the Southside of Jacksonville.  There has to be a balance. 

thelakelander

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Re: Suburban Infill: Atlantic Crossings
« Reply #23 on: August 05, 2008, 02:58:42 PM »
Cant' we all just get along???  8)

Yes - the architect made strides to make a better site plan.  But, the simple fact is that in this contractor driven marketplace of Jacksonville, the "value engineered" design by the contractor almost always wins.  If you can cut a corner without much notice and put more money in your pocket, that is the name of the game in JAX.  More power needs to be given to the architect to look out of the owner's best interest. 

To all architects out there - please, let's put much more emphasis on holding to your guns and stand up for your specifications.  Don't let these contractors go behind your back and convince the owner into a "savings" and alter your design.  The architect is supposed to be the top of the food chain.  Let's step up on that darn ladder here in JAX.

All the value engineering in the world won't matter, as long as the minimum city requirements are met.  Zoning and Land Use sit at the top of the food chain.  Everything is down hill after that.  Get the zoning and land use right and value engineering/cheap contractors/developers, etc. just ends up creating less attractive, but still walkable oriented projects.
"A man who views the world the same at 50 as he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life.” - Muhammad Ali

thelakelander

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Re: Suburban Infill: Atlantic Crossings
« Reply #24 on: August 05, 2008, 03:02:45 PM »
Quote
Yes - the architect made strides to make a better site plan.  But, the simple fact is that in this contractor driven marketplace of Jacksonville, the "value engineered" design by the contractor almost always wins.  If you can cut a corner without much notice and put more money in your pocket, that is the name of the game in JAX.  More power needs to be given to the architect to look out of the owner's best interest.

To all architects out there - please, let's put much more emphasis on holding to your guns and stand up for your specifications.  Don't let these contractors go behind your back and convince the owner into a "savings" and alter your design.  The architect is supposed to be the top of the food chain.  Let's step up on that darn ladder here in JAX.

You have to remember that the residences still need to be affordable.  Perhaps that is part of the reason that these contractors "cut corners" as you call it.  The architect could come up with a fantastic site plan, but if the site plan requires each to sell for $500,000, you will have a hard time finding buyers at that price point on the Southside of Jacksonville.  There has to be a balance. 

A "walkable" oriented site plan should not require a rise in contruction costs.  Just a little foresight to make sure every little project is developed with a grander vision in mind can make a world of a difference.
"A man who views the world the same at 50 as he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life.” - Muhammad Ali

Jason

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Re: Suburban Infill: Atlantic Crossings
« Reply #25 on: August 05, 2008, 04:42:33 PM »
@ Jason
What direction is that? Atlantic Crossing does not resemble a 'walkable' neighbourhood as it has wide sidewalks and a different style of parking. The parking is at the back to cater to foot traffic but there isint a lot of locations for the foot traffic to go to.
A regular old condo complex would be just as good.

The opposition is not towards the building of the neighbourhood but towards the claim that it is a walkable neighbourhood. The claim has been made in the post. The website of Atlantic Crossing portrays this idea as well as you can walk to the town center etc. Here is a good website to see what makes a neighbourhood walkable: http://www.walkscore.com/walkable-neighborhoods.shtml

I think we should stop trying to simulate urban-downtown-like environments in an Edge City. To truly create an urban environment, developers and the city need to come together towards one common vision, not an individual effort like that of Atlantic Crossing's.

But if you don't start emulating those "urban-downtown-like" environments in the burbs, you will never reach a goal of creating a walkable edge city or suburb.  Shoulder 4 or 5 of thises things together in an area like the Town Center and you're much closer to a walkable environment than if the current patterns of development continue, no matter what the density.

I agree that the location is pretty remote and not nearly as walkable as its website touts, however, it is much more appealing and effecient than the typical suburban apartment complex.



Quote
To all architects out there - please, let's put much more emphasis on holding to your guns and stand up for your specifications.  Don't let these contractors go behind your back and convince the owner into a "savings" and alter your design.  The architect is supposed to be the top of the food chain.  Let's step up on that darn ladder here in JAX.

The same holds true for us engineers.  I'm sure the firm that designed the electrical portion of the project had a much grander vision for the site and street lighting, but the VE process likely cut it in half.  I too see this play out day-in and day-out.

Driven1

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Re: Suburban Infill: Atlantic Crossings
« Reply #26 on: August 05, 2008, 07:05:25 PM »
this is Florida after all and we do get a lot of sunshine!

and a lot of thunderstorms, lightning and mosquitos.   ;)

civil42806

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Re: Suburban Infill: Atlantic Crossings
« Reply #27 on: August 05, 2008, 08:46:47 PM »
"Yes - the architect made strides to make a better site plan.  But, the simple fact is that in this contractor driven marketplace of Jacksonville, the "value engineered" design by the contractor almost always wins.  If you can cut a corner without much notice and put more money in your pocket, that is the name of the game in JAX.  More power needs to be given to the architect to look out of the owner's best interest.

To all architects out there - please, let's put much more emphasis on holding to your guns and stand up for your specifications.  Don't let these contractors go behind your back and convince the owner into a "savings" and alter your design.  The architect is supposed to be the top of the food chain.  Let's step up on that darn ladder here in JAX."

The architect at the top of the food chain?  Odd I thought it was supposed to be the buyer, everyone else underneath him to provide him with a product he wants and can afford.

civil42806

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Re: Suburban Infill: Atlantic Crossings
« Reply #28 on: August 05, 2008, 08:50:00 PM »
"BUT, what if the city decided that they wanted to take drastic measures in the Tinseltown area and reduce Southside Blvd to two lanes with large medians and sidewalks on both sides and ample crosswalks.  I know it is a long shot but these sort of changes could make the Tinseltown area into the type of walkable community you are referring to."


Long shot, thats being polite, I think the term your looking for is a snowballs chance in hell.

gatorback

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Re: Suburban Infill: Atlantic Crossings
« Reply #29 on: August 05, 2008, 10:37:19 PM »
The architect works for the client right?  So, the client decides probably based on market studies or known trends what goes up.  I know sometimes the architect can call the shots, but let's face it, somebody is paying the bills personally, I think they did the right thing here.  So, what's the square foot cost, how long has it been open and what's % is rented already.  Did they raise the bar?
« Last Edit: August 05, 2008, 10:39:34 PM by gatorback »
'As a sinner I am truly conscious of having often offended my Creator and I beg him to forgive me, but as a Queen and Sovereign, I am aware of no fault or offence for which I have to render account to anyone here below.'   Mary, queen of Scots to her jailer, Sir Amyas Paulet; October 1586