Author Topic: Lenny Curry wants state money to remove Hart Bridge ramps near Everbank Field  (Read 46313 times)

acme54321

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Maybe it was a way to cut cost? Otherwise, it looks like it's solely to get that part of the land for Shad Khan to create a stadium entertainment area.

Ding ding ding.  Curry already said he planned to beg for the Mo ey from the state.  If you're going to go to them for funding you might as we ask for $100M and do it all.  I'm sure FDOT wouldn't mind removing miles of sparsely used bridges from their inventory.  Or are these city maintained?

thelakelander

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^That's a FDOT maintained facility and I doubt they have money to laying around to tear it down or rebuild it within a year.  If Curry can pull it off with that type of timeline, I'll be the first to give him a pat on the back. Also, they can save more money by not constructing a new ramp on the waterfront for cars to get to Monroe and Duval. Just close it off to auto traffic completely, until the funds are there to remove the rest.
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Jax-Nole

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Can the rest even be removed? Those ramps either go over, or go very close to a number of buildings. I tried to search YouTube for bridge demolitions, and there wasn't a single example in the first 10 pages of a bridge being taken down that goes over buildings. Of the videos that I did watch, they all resulted in a ton of debris on the ground. I'm not entirely sure it is feasible to remove the rest of those ramps, at very least if they expect those buildings below to not have any damage. I am not a construction expert in any way, but I can't figure out how it could be done.

FlaBoy

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Can the rest even be removed? Those ramps either go over, or go very close to a number of buildings. I tried to search YouTube for bridge demolitions, and there wasn't a single example in the first 10 pages of a bridge being taken down that goes over buildings. Of the videos that I did watch, they all resulted in a ton of debris on the ground. I'm not entirely sure it is feasible to remove the rest of those ramps, at very least if they expect those buildings below to not have any damage. I am not a construction expert in any way, but I can't figure out how it could be done.

Very true. Had not thought of that but would make sense from their plan that they talked to some experts about that problem. Also, LOVE the idea of using the ramp for the Skyway or transit overall. Great idea Lake as always! Maybe a new write up on the idea?

acme54321

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Can the rest even be removed? Those ramps either go over, or go very close to a number of buildings. I tried to search YouTube for bridge demolitions, and there wasn't a single example in the first 10 pages of a bridge being taken down that goes over buildings. Of the videos that I did watch, they all resulted in a ton of debris on the ground. I'm not entirely sure it is feasible to remove the rest of those ramps, at very least if they expect those buildings below to not have any damage. I am not a construction expert in any way, but I can't figure out how it could be done.

Basically the Sulzbacher center.  Clearly it wouldn't be easy, or cheap.  You'd pretty much have to dismantle the largest pieces possible with cranes while protecting the buildings below.  And at times they aren't occupied.

Sometimes things are hard, and to do them right isn't the easiest thing.  These structures will have to come down at some point.  Be it now or in 100 years, I don't know.

Steve

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If you watched the dismantling of the original I-95 lanes as part of the Overland Bridge Project, most of it went down fast....except for the part over the roads as well as over the Skywalk from the JTA garage to Kings Avenue station.

KenFSU

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Not a fan of leaving those other ramps....

Agreed - it's like they're trying to do a NYC high line sort of thing, which I don't know that I agree with. It's an interesting concept, but the uses around there aren't really conducive to a high line atmosphere (residential/retail/etc). There isn't even the building fabric around it to encourage adaptive reuse in that regard.

Jacksonville has a very poor track record when attempting addition by subtraction, but just like the Coastline demo, I really do like the idea of removing those ramps. That said, Curry's proposal sure is strange.

An elevated path/park, overlooking the prison, the backside of Maxwell House, a bunch of surface lots, an adjacent two-way ramp, and 30 acres of contaminated brown fields?

It's an interesting idea, but to do it properly, you'd need to spend a lot of money. It's also something that would make such more sense if the area was already developed. As is, I worry that the remnants of an abandoned highway ramp just further blights an already blighted area and makes eventual development of the Shipyards even more cost-prohibitive.

Before Curry starts throwing around High Line comparisons, it's apples and yellow fever. The reason the High Line is such a wonderful space is because its so tightly woven into the existing urban fabric. Every hundred yards, there are new vistas overlooking interesting architecture, busy streets, the Hudson, etc. There are also numerous amenities, from benches and elevated overlooks, to cover from the sun, to retail. Not to mention the tremendous utility the space provides from getting to Point A to Point B without having to cross over insane intersections.

I'm actually in lower Manhattan on business.

Grabbed some videos of the High Line this morning to demonstrate what a wonderful job another city did with their elevated path.

Sorry in advance for the motion sickness these videos may cause  ;)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rbSVSWn1JIk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tOn2M58VQ6w
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NIIWJqpC22E
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FtA_wet_Ods


Kerry

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There is zero reason to keep the west end of those ramps.  They won't be used as pedestrian routes, bicycle paths, or skyway expansion.  If you think they can you don't understand walkability, bicycle riding, or mass transit.  The only reason they aren't shown as being removed is because they don't sit between Khanland and the water.  If they were they would be removed as well.
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Tacachale

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Apparently the reason for leaving the west ramps is that they can't be taken down without astronomical cost. It would be a bigger project than removing and redeveloping the entire half mile along Bay. After looking at it I'm not sure it could even be done without closing the Sulzbacher Center temporarily.

The proposed plan is just adding a ramp connecting to "New Bay" and some minor changes like landscaping and restriping to create bike/ped lanes. It would be only a fraction of the cost of the whole project. And as not all car traffic coming over the bridge would be sent on those ramps, it will greatly reduce the current deterioration and safety issues.

I doubt all that many people will use it, but all things considered I'm cool with it. In the very least it will make it a bit prettier until funds are available later to take it down and redevelop the area.
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vicupstate

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If at all possible, the entire thing should come down.  No one will  use the Western ramps for anything, IMO.  With them gone, the potential  for Hogan's Creek would be a lot more apparent. 
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Lunican

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I'd rather they build no new ramps and tear down everything west of A.P. Randolph. It's not impossible to remove a bridge over a building, just disassemble it from the top down.

But then again, maybe it doesn't matter. What do we realistically expect to become of the land between A.P. Randolph and Liberty Street?

Kerry

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To even be useable they would have to be brought back down to grade and tied into the street.  That would cost more than tearing them down in the first place.  They will just put Jersey barriers up on the west end of each ramp to keep cars off.
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Tacachale

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If at all possible, the entire thing should come down.  No one will  use the Western ramps for anything, IMO.  With them gone, the potential  for Hogan's Creek would be a lot more apparent. 

Long term, I agree.

I'd rather they build no new ramps and tear down everything west of A.P. Randolph. It's not impossible to remove a bridge over a building, just disassemble it from the top down.

But then again, maybe it doesn't matter. What do we realistically expect to become of the land between A.P. Randolph and Liberty Street?
To even be useable they would have to be brought back down to grade and tied into the street.  That would cost more than tearing them down in the first place.  They will just put Jersey barriers up on the west end of each ramp to keep cars off.

That's the issue - tearing it down would cost *much* more than just building a ramp and some cosmetic additions.
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Lunican

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Leave the section over Sulzbacher. They can use it as a roof deck.

finehoe

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Jacksonville has a very poor track record when attempting addition by subtraction, but just like the Coastline demo, I really do like the idea of removing those ramps. That said, Curry's proposal sure is strange.

An elevated path/park, overlooking the prison, the backside of Maxwell House, a bunch of surface lots, an adjacent two-way ramp, and 30 acres of contaminated brown fields?

It's an interesting idea, but to do it properly, you'd need to spend a lot of money. It's also something that would make such more sense if the area was already developed. As is, I worry that the remnants of an abandoned highway ramp just further blights an already blighted area and makes eventual development of the Shipyards even more cost-prohibitive.

It makes no sense at all considering a significant part of the elevated path/park parallels Hogan Creek.  Why be above the creek when a grade-level path/park along the banks of the creek would be much nicer and more user-friendly.