mass shooting and police militarization

[AKIRA]

London, where guns are banned and where a politician just got shot?
http://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/jo-cox-british-lawmaker-shot-stabbed-yorkshire-reports-n593581

I just don't see a reason the police need military equipment, and it is military equipment. The shooter didn't need policing, he needed help or imprisonment. The police have too many toys and are far too eager to use them. Ask poor black communities.

There was a great segment on 60 minutes just last week in about a police department in Maine (I think) where they stopped arresting people for meth and instead gave them help. It has been a huge success, and costs less money.

So, by your standards the police should not have a Bearcat because it seems military, much less SWAT, although it was the piece of equipment/tactics that saved what they could of the hostages?  Is there some piece of equipment, that you would not consider a 'toy' that could bring and end to the shooting?  The libertarian philosophy puts quite a bit of effort of preventing government over reach, but I have noticed, puts nearly no effort into reasonable security (example being much of the Lib. anger towards the TSA).

What is done in Maine for meth-heads doesn't mean squat when someone is shooting at you in Orlando.  If your not going to offer anything but half baked quips, then why post....  As technology makes weapons more effective and available to fanatics/disturbed/evil people, the problems only gets worse.

Orlando Police Response Questioned

The Orlando SWAT team commander who led the final assault that brought an end to Sunday’s massacre at a gay nightclub is defending the decision to wait nearly three hours after the initial shooting before breaching the club’s wall.

“Initially it was an active shooter,” Capt. Mark Canty told Yahoo News Global Anchor Katie Couric on Thursday. “Once the shooting stopped, it became a barricaded gunman. And our officers acted accordingly — they surrounded it, they contained it, and we looked for ways to get the hostages out.”

Several experts have said the delay may have contributed to the death toll.

“Action beats inaction 100 percent of the time,” Chris Grollnek, an active-shooter expert and a retired police officer and SWAT team member, told the Associated Press. “When we see SWAT teams respond and not making entry [it] creates victims. Period. End of story.”

https://www.yahoo.com/news/orlando-swat-captain-pulse-hostages-000000292.html

Could this article be interrupted as pointing out that the Orlando P.D. tactics in this incident, were not aggressive (militarized) enough for the problem.....? 

[The_Choose_1]

London, where guns are banned and where a politician just got shot?
http://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/jo-cox-british-lawmaker-shot-stabbed-yorkshire-reports-n593581

I just don't see a reason the police need military equipment, and it is military equipment. The shooter didn't need policing, he needed help or imprisonment. The police have too many toys and are far too eager to use them. Ask poor black communities.

There was a great segment on 60 minutes just last week in about a police department in Maine (I think) where they stopped arresting people for meth and instead gave them help. It has been a huge success, and costs less money.

So, by your standards the police should not have a Bearcat because it seems military, much less SWAT, although it was the piece of equipment/tactics that saved what they could of the hostages?  Is there some piece of equipment, that you would not consider a 'toy' that could bring and end to the shooting?  The libertarian philosophy puts quite a bit of effort of preventing government over reach, but I have noticed, puts nearly no effort into reasonable security (example being much of the Lib. anger towards the TSA).

What is done in Maine for meth-heads doesn't mean squat when someone is shooting at you Orlando.  If your not going to anything but offer half baked quips.  As technology makes weapons more effective and available to fanatics/disturbed/evil people, to problems on gets worse.

Orlando Police Response Questioned

The Orlando SWAT team commander who led the final assault that brought an end to Sunday’s massacre at a gay nightclub is defending the decision to wait nearly three hours after the initial shooting before breaching the club’s wall.

“Initially it was an active shooter,” Capt. Mark Canty told Yahoo News Global Anchor Katie Couric on Thursday. “Once the shooting stopped, it became a barricaded gunman. And our officers acted accordingly — they surrounded it, they contained it, and we looked for ways to get the hostages out.”

Several experts have said the delay may have contributed to the death toll.

“Action beats inaction 100 percent of the time,” Chris Grollnek, an active-shooter expert and a retired police officer and SWAT team member, told the Associated Press. “When we see SWAT teams respond and not making entry [it] creates victims. Period. End of story.”

https://www.yahoo.com/news/orlando-swat-captain-pulse-hostages-000000292.html

Could this article be interrupted as pointing out that the Orlando P.D. tactics in this incident, were not aggressive (militarized) enough for the problem.....?

"As technology makes weapons more effective and available to fanatics/disturbed/evil people, to problems on gets worse." Thanks to the NRA for this mess.

[AKIRA]

More half baked quips.  Considering we are trying to talk specifically about the police and militarization, the NRA has little to nothing to do with it.. If it does, then feel free to back it up with some reasoning.

If all discussions dwindle to single line pre-programmed snippets, then what's the point....?

[The_Choose_1]

More half baked quips.  Considering we are trying to talk specifically about the police and militarization, the NRA has little to nothing to do with it.. If it does, then feel free to back it up with some reasoning.

If all discussions dwindle to single line pre-programmed snippets, then what's the point....?

Sometimes the point is not to troll as you and others in this forum would say. The point is arming the local cops as if they're the National Guard is just Nuts. I hope and pray you're not a cop. Because you come across as your right unless the reasoning matches your so called intelligence.

[Adam White]

London, where guns are banned and where a politician just got shot?
http://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/jo-cox-british-lawmaker-shot-stabbed-yorkshire-reports-n593581

I just don't see a reason the police need military equipment, and it is military equipment. The shooter didn't need policing, he needed help or imprisonment. The police have too many toys and are far too eager to use them. Ask poor black communities.

There was a great segment on 60 minutes just last week in about a police department in Maine (I think) where they stopped arresting people for meth and instead gave them help. It has been a huge success, and costs less money.

She wasn't shot in London. It was Yorkshire.

And guns are not banned in the UK. And it appeared to either be an antique weapon or a home made weapon.

There is still gun violence in the UK. But our rate is far, far, far lower than yours. And most of it is gang-on-gang violence. So I don't feel unsafe being unarmed.

[BridgeTroll]

http://havokjournal.com/nation/what-is-the-real-problem-with-gun-violence-in-america/

What is the Real Problem with Gun Violence in America?
June 17, 2016 by Paul J. O'Leary

It is sad, tragic, and all too familiar now. It has become akin to a political battle drill:  a sociopathic individual armed with a gun enters a public place where people should be able to go and spend quality time and begins shooting, leaving a body count and a nation mourning yet another indescribable loss…then the wagons begin to circle.

“It’s the guns! We have to something about guns!”

“It’s mental illness! When are we going to address the issue?”

“Racism/Anti-Semitism is the culprit here! How long must we suffer?”

“It’s those irresponsible gun-free zones! An armed citizen could have stopped this!”

When it comes to gun violence, guns ARE part of the problem.
And once again, the national debate begins. Sadly, though, it usually does look more like a debate and less like a conversation. It looks even less like problem resolving. Today in America, we need more conversation and less debate.

I am going to say something now that will not make me any points with our readership: guns are a part of the problem.

Yeah, I said it. I make that statement as a free American gun owner who has guns in his home for self-protection. As a 20-year police veteran who has carried at least one firearm every day for most of his adult life. As a husband and father who has armed his wife for her protection and taught his sons and daughters how to shoot and safely handle firearms. Most importantly, I say this as an American veteran who values his rights under the 2nd Amendment.

Now, before you start flaming me and sending nasty emails complaining about me, let me explain my statement.

Guns are a part of the problem in these all too common mass shootings, they are not THE problem.

The reality is, the gun is the easiest, most lethal, and effective way to kill a bunch of people in a short period of time. The average, untrained (or minimally trained) person would not be able to do this much damage with a knife or a bat. It could happen with explosives, but that requires a certain level of knowledge and resources. It is also easier to blow yourself up in your garage bomb lab than it is to shoot yourself.

I don’t want to ban guns or repeal the 2nd Amendment. I just want to acknowledge that the gun is a lethal weapon and part of the problem with mass murders in America. It’s a pretty big problem with criminal violence, suicide, and domestic violence also.

Mental illness is a problem, too. I don’t have a degree in psychology or psychiatry, but I’m comfortable making this statement: Normally functioning, well-adjusted individuals do not kill multiple people for their own entertainment or political benefit. Unless you are a soldier in a combat zone or defending a life, this is not something you do…even if you play violent video games while watching violent movies and listening to violent music like Marilyn Manson and Ozzie Osbourne.

We have a mental illness problem in our country. It is something that we need to address somehow.

Racism is not over. Yes, we have a black president. Before than Colin Powell and Condaleeza Rice held the two highest political positions ever held by black people in America. Black and Hispanic people have made incredible strides forward in America. That doesn’t mean life is all flowers and happiness for minorities. Racism still exists. It is undeniable.

So, what’s the answer? I don’t know because the answer is complicated. But I know what the answer isn’t.

The answer is not to try to cram these myriad and complex issues into a single, easily categorized box that fits your particular political view.

The answer is not to dismiss those with differing viewpoints out of hand as racists, idiots, low information voters, gun nuts, hippies, race-baiters, or liberal hippies, although those labels might fit certain people.

The answer is not to ignore studies, evidence, or information that does not support your point of view. Nor is the answer to cherry pick information that supports your point of view to the exclusion of all others. Wouldn’t it be better to look at the information presented to you and find the flaws while acknowledging the truths? Then do the same thing to the data that supports your position. I’m pretty sure they call that thinking….yes; I’m positive that is what it’s called.

I don’t the answer, but I think I know how we get to the answer.

We get the answer by coming together and trying to solve the problem. I don’t mean come together is hippie, Kumbaya-singing way, but by bringing people (preferably professional people) to the table and trying to find a way to solve this issue. Gun rights advocates, Constitutional scholars, mental health professionals, civil rights leaders, and law enforcement leaders, just to name a few. Then listen to each other. Actually listen. Don’t over each other like a panel on a 24-hour news channel. Don’t just quietly wait until you have a chance to talk. Listen. Hear. Understand.

Would this solve the problem? It might. It might not. These are complex issues that require complex solutions. But it would do more for America than what we’re doing now, which is pointing fingers and putting our heads in the sand.

[finehoe]

The answer is not to ignore studies, evidence, or information that does not support your point of view. Nor is the answer to cherry pick information that supports your point of view to the exclusion of all others. Wouldn’t it be better to look at the information presented to you and find the flaws while acknowledging the truths? Then do the same thing to the data that supports your position. I’m pretty sure they call that thinking….yes; I’m positive that is what it’s called.

GOP keeps in place funding ban on gun violence research

A GOP-led panel blocked a proposal Wednesday that would have reversed a nearly 20-year-old ban on funding for the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) to research on gun violence.

http://thehill.com/policy/finance/245983-gop-panel-votes-to-keep-funding-ban-for-gun-violence-research

[kris]

First off being closer to the situation-viewing 24/7 coverage here in Central Florida- I don't know how much of the full information that has unfolded extremely quickly over the past few days that Jax  or other cities citizens have really seen.  The info gathered on this asshole is just incredible-  This was an extremely disturbed and conflicted man from just about childhood- its amazing what has been revealed  and all the major documented problems with this man. He fell through the cracks.  I think we are in yet another transforming part of terrorism. Now we and the FBI etc. are faced with "Lone Wolf" individuals who have no direct contact with these groups but are fed from all the available sources coming in from the web and other forms of media. I think that is almost an impossible task that the FBI etc now has to deal with( no longer looking and monitoring groups) If you have conflicted religious individuals- in this case I believe this man knew he was gay from childhood(you usually do) but as we all know his particular religion fought him on this at every turn- and a Father who I feel is actually a terrorist himself(its starting to come out about him and that sick wife). Add all that to a society that still condemns for the most part and doesn't want to try to understand how human beings are born different(for what ever reason) the tremendous build up of misdirected hate.

Don't kid yourselves citizens because this mass murdering event happened at a Gay Nightclub( which if you are really tuned in  as a human being)alot of those patrons were not gay- gay clubs are very mixed now- all the other mass murders  here and around  the world were not !!!!!  Next.... lets talk about automatic weapons for everyday citizens !!!!

[Adam White]

Interesting perspective. The guy is an American who was slashed by an Islamist terrorist:

“I don’t feel in any way less safe because of the absence of weapons here - I feel much safer. I don’t feel less free, I feel more free from the threat of lethal violence, even though somebody apparently tried to remove my head,” he said.

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/gun-laws-saved-tube-knife-attack-from-turning-into-orlando-style-massacre_uk_5763f7ede4b0a4f99adbe96f?edition=uk&utm_hp_ref=uk