Author Topic: Abolish Prisons - Totally & Absolutely  (Read 12761 times)

I-10east

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Re: Abolish Prisons - Totally & Absolutely
« Reply #15 on: May 01, 2016, 01:06:41 AM »
I- 10, what are you talking about? Are you under the impression that immigrants in United States commit more crimes than actual citizens, or that they have a higher recidivism rate? You are incorrect if that is what you are saying.

You wanna talk about recidivism? Well, the recidivism rate for murderers in 5 years is over 50 percent (recommitting violent crimes). So go on and throw money down the drain with these stupid pie and the sky 'making chicken salad out of chicken shit' programs. You can polish a turd, but it's still a turd...There are some worthless lowlife "people" (yes in quotes) out there that shouldn't be born, committing heinous crimes etc, and deserves zero compassion, imagine that...Now back to sunshine, lollipops, and rainbows (as Lesley Gore said) liberal land AKA delusion...
« Last Edit: May 01, 2016, 01:14:57 AM by I-10east »

Adam White

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Re: Abolish Prisons - Totally & Absolutely
« Reply #16 on: May 01, 2016, 03:14:28 AM »
I- 10, what are you talking about? Are you under the impression that immigrants in United States commit more crimes than actual citizens, or that they have a higher recidivism rate? You are incorrect if that is what you are saying.

You wanna talk about recidivism? Well, the recidivism rate for murderers in 5 years is over 50 percent (recommitting violent crimes). So go on and throw money down the drain with these stupid pie and the sky 'making chicken salad out of chicken shit' programs. You can polish a turd, but it's still a turd...There are some worthless lowlife "people" (yes in quotes) out there that shouldn't be born, committing heinous crimes etc, and deserves zero compassion, imagine that...Now back to sunshine, lollipops, and rainbows (as Lesley Gore said) liberal land AKA delusion...

You haven't responded to his question I-10. He was asking if you were contending that immigrants commit more crimes or that immigrants have a higher rate of recidivism.
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AKIRA

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Re: Abolish Prisons - Totally & Absolutely
« Reply #17 on: May 01, 2016, 04:57:53 PM »
I- 10, what are you talking about? Are you under the impression that immigrants in United States commit more crimes than actual citizens, or that they have a higher recidivism rate? You are incorrect if that is what you are saying.

You wanna talk about recidivism? Well, the recidivism rate for murderers in 5 years is over 50 percent (recommitting violent crimes). So go on and throw money down the drain with these stupid pie and the sky 'making chicken salad out of chicken shit' programs. You can polish a turd, but it's still a turd...There are some worthless lowlife "people" (yes in quotes) out there that shouldn't be born, committing heinous crimes etc, and deserves zero compassion, imagine that...Now back to sunshine, lollipops, and rainbows (as Lesley Gore said) liberal land AKA delusion...

You haven't responded to his question I-10. He was asking if you were contending that immigrants commit more crimes or that immigrants have a higher rate of recidivism.

He is clearly not saying that, but it is obvious that when one culture melds into another's', there is often problems.  One of which is crime that stems from the new people having a difficult time adjusting to a different set of morals.


Adam White

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Re: Abolish Prisons - Totally & Absolutely
« Reply #18 on: May 01, 2016, 05:40:34 PM »


He is clearly not saying that, but it is obvious that when one culture melds into another's', there is often problems.  One of which is crime that stems from the new people having a difficult time adjusting to a different set of morals.

I'd love to see the stats to back up your contention. I also think your comment implies that immigrants are somehow amoral or lacking in some ways when it comes to morals.

Morals or mores?

As an immigrant, I bristle at this sort of thing. I am tired of immigrants being scapegoated constantly. I have  job, I pay taxes, I've never been on welfare, I vote, etc. I am no criminal. None of my immigrant friends are, either. Or my immigrant neighbors.

It's this fear of the "other" that is used to divide people. When times are tough, don't look at the politicians or their paymasters - look at your neighbors instead. They're the reason you have the problems you do, right? They look a little different and sound a little different - surely they're the reason for the country's problems (real and imagined).
« Last Edit: May 01, 2016, 05:45:28 PM by Adam White »
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AKIRA

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Re: Abolish Prisons - Totally & Absolutely
« Reply #19 on: May 01, 2016, 06:19:58 PM »
Where you from?

TheCat

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Re: Abolish Prisons - Totally & Absolutely
« Reply #20 on: May 01, 2016, 07:09:00 PM »
the irony of i-10s statements is his total acknowledgement that prisons don't work. Yet, he is totally adamant that they should continue to function as they are.

The greater irony of i10's statements is his ignorance about prisons. Prisons were born from Christian perspectives to create a space that allowed for the reformation of prisoners.

Prisons are "penitentiaries", as in penance or repentance. Concepts of solitary confinement, for example, were not intended to be punishment but forced attempts to give the troubled criminal a time to reflect and pray in so that they would...repent. That approach backfired for a multitude of reasons.

In relationship to prisons, it's philosophically inconsistent to have a "lock 'em up and throw away the key" attitude. Prisons were initially designed as stupid pie and the sky 'making chicken salad out of chicken shit' programs.

So, before we talk about prison reform it's important to consider that prisons at one time were the reform. Prisons were the progressive ideal, if you will, until they instantly became another way of controlling and criminalizing the undesirables of our society, guilty or not.



« Last Edit: May 01, 2016, 07:42:31 PM by TheCat »

AKIRA

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Re: Abolish Prisons - Totally & Absolutely
« Reply #21 on: May 01, 2016, 08:30:31 PM »


He is clearly not saying that, but it is obvious that when one culture melds into another's', there is often problems.  One of which is crime that stems from the new people having a difficult time adjusting to a different set of morals.

I'd love to see the stats to back up your contention. I also think your comment implies that immigrants are somehow amoral or lacking in some ways when it comes to morals.

Morals or mores?

As an immigrant, I bristle at this sort of thing. I am tired of immigrants being scapegoated constantly. I have  job, I pay taxes, I've never been on welfare, I vote, etc. I am no criminal. None of my immigrant friends are, either. Or my immigrant neighbors.

It's this fear of the "other" that is used to divide people. When times are tough, don't look at the politicians or their paymasters - look at your neighbors instead. They're the reason you have the problems you do, right? They look a little different and sound a little different - surely they're the reason for the country's problems (real and imagined).

I see.. from England...?  I can't imagine what troubles you might have in the New World..

I don't have stats, I have personal experience. 

In Jax, when the first big wave of Mexicans (illegal immigrants/undocumented worker) they had a big problem with drunk driving, hit and run, domestic violence, public drunkenness, soliciting, stabbing, etc. This had to do with what was acceptable, at times useful, in a Mexican slum not being kosher here.  It also had to do with having some wealth for the first time, and the loneliness of being away from home. 

The Bosnian/Albanian had population similar problems too stemming from carrying a village mentally into an American city.   They had the added difficulty of coming from a war torn area, to a peaceful environment.  Just because they are no longer facing such dire circumstances does not mean they are ready to unlearn the survival techniques they needed back in the old country.

I am not making a moral judgement on the totality of any immigrant group, nor do I fear the Other, but being blind the problems they face and the problems they can bring do not do them any favor, as it does not adequately prepare any services to help them face a change of culture.

CCMjax

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Re: Abolish Prisons - Totally & Absolutely
« Reply #22 on: May 01, 2016, 09:23:57 PM »
Hes an American Immigrant to London, Akira.

Oh the horror!  An American immigrant in England of all places! :) That's only about the easiest place on the planet for an American to assimilate and be accepted other than Canada (America's 51st State/America's adopted sibling/whatever you want to call it).  I lived in England for 8 months and about the worst thing I encountered was the dreadful constant 45 degree drizzle and 3 pm darkness from about October to May.  I don't recall anyone treating me as a seedy Yank who was just looking for a purse to snatch or a car to break into.  I did actually get asked one time "Can you really buy bazookas and machine guns at Walmart in America?"  My answer of course was. . . "ummmmmm, YEAH!  Of course you can! What is that weird?"  I think I managed to win over most Brits I encountered when I finally admitted "ok, I admit, it is kind of silly that our Football is called Football and the sport you play almost exclusively with your foot we call soccer."
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I-10east

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Re: Abolish Prisons - Totally & Absolutely
« Reply #23 on: May 01, 2016, 10:43:26 PM »
You haven't responded to his question I-10. He was asking if you were contending that immigrants commit more crimes or that immigrants have a higher rate of recidivism.

Commit more crimes (overseas in Europe was what I was talking about). It's the dirty truth. The only ones that disagree are in pure denial. Que Stephen butting in; Oh god, yuck!!!!  ::) 

Adam White

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Re: Abolish Prisons - Totally & Absolutely
« Reply #24 on: May 02, 2016, 01:46:50 AM »
Hes an American Immigrant to London, Akira.



Oh the horror!  An American immigrant in England of all places! :) That's only about the easiest place on the planet for an American to assimilate and be accepted other than Canada (America's 51st State/America's adopted sibling/whatever you want to call it).  I lived in England for 8 months and about the worst thing I encountered was the dreadful constant 45 degree drizzle and 3 pm darkness from about October to May.  I don't recall anyone treating me as a seedy Yank who was just looking for a purse to snatch or a car to break into.  I did actually get asked one time "Can you really buy bazookas and machine guns at Walmart in America?"  My answer of course was. . . "ummmmmm, YEAH!  Of course you can! What is that weird?"  I think I managed to win over most Brits I encountered when I finally admitted "ok, I admit, it is kind of silly that our Football is called Football and the sport you play almost exclusively with your foot we call soccer."

Eight whole months?  :P

I'm talking about anti-immigrant rhetoric. Not anything directed at me, personally (although I have twice received abuse for being American - but in the span of almost 10 years, that's very little).

I don't know when it was that you lived here, but the attitude towards immigrants has likely worsened. At least it has in the outer London boroughs (I currently live in Havering and it's UKIP/BNP, pro-Brexit country).

As far as I'm concerned, I get sick of people bashing immigrants and complaining about how they come over here to get handouts and abuse the welfare system. When I point out that I've never done any of that sort of thing, I am told, "yeah, but you're different". Different how? Basically, that means white and English-speaking. Most people who moan about immigrants don't actually have any real evidence to support their claims.

If I'm different, then isn't it possible that most immigrants are different and don't fit the stereotype? As I mentioned before, none of the immigrants I know are criminals or work-shy benefits cheats. And the statistics show that more Britons are on benefits than immigrants (as a percentage). And that there is no demonstrable link between crime rates and immigration rates. But that doesn't stop people from trotting out the same, tired "facts" to support their racism.

I remember one girl I worked with complaining about the family that lived near her who had a council flat. When I pressed her on it, she admitted she knew nothing of their situation. She didn't know they were unemployed - she didn't know anything about their lives. It's just that they were dark-skinned and lived in a flat on a council estate. It's quite possible they weren't council/housing association tenants, but actually owned their flat, as Thatcher decimated available public housing stock by allowing it to be sold. (Case in point: we own our flat and live on a council estate).
« Last Edit: May 02, 2016, 04:48:04 AM by Adam White »
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CCMjax

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Re: Abolish Prisons - Totally & Absolutely
« Reply #25 on: May 02, 2016, 09:47:53 AM »
Hes an American Immigrant to London, Akira.



Oh the horror!  An American immigrant in England of all places! :) That's only about the easiest place on the planet for an American to assimilate and be accepted other than Canada (America's 51st State/America's adopted sibling/whatever you want to call it).  I lived in England for 8 months and about the worst thing I encountered was the dreadful constant 45 degree drizzle and 3 pm darkness from about October to May.  I don't recall anyone treating me as a seedy Yank who was just looking for a purse to snatch or a car to break into.  I did actually get asked one time "Can you really buy bazookas and machine guns at Walmart in America?"  My answer of course was. . . "ummmmmm, YEAH!  Of course you can! What is that weird?"  I think I managed to win over most Brits I encountered when I finally admitted "ok, I admit, it is kind of silly that our Football is called Football and the sport you play almost exclusively with your foot we call soccer."

Eight whole months?  :P

I'm talking about anti-immigrant rhetoric. Not anything directed at me, personally (although I have twice received abuse for being American - but in the span of almost 10 years, that's very little).

I don't know when it was that you lived here, but the attitude towards immigrants has likely worsened. At least it has in the outer London boroughs (I currently live in Havering and it's UKIP/BNP, pro-Brexit country).

As far as I'm concerned, I get sick of people bashing immigrants and complaining about how they come over here to get handouts and abuse the welfare system. When I point out that I've never done any of that sort of thing, I am told, "yeah, but you're different". Different how? Basically, that means white and English-speaking. Most people who moan about immigrants don't actually have any real evidence to support their claims.

If I'm different, then isn't it possible that most immigrants are different and don't fit the stereotype? As I mentioned before, none of the immigrants I know are criminals or work-shy benefits cheats. And the statistics show that more Britons are on benefits than immigrants (as a percentage). And that there is no demonstrable link between crime rates and immigration rates. But that doesn't stop people from trotting out the same, tired "facts" to support their racism.

I remember one girl I worked with complaining about the family that lived near her who had a council flat. When I pressed her on it, she admitted she knew nothing of their situation. She didn't know they were unemployed - she didn't know anything about their lives. It's just that they were dark-skinned and lived in a flat on a council estate. It's quite possible they weren't council/housing association tenants, but actually owned their flat, as Thatcher decimated available public housing stock by allowing it to be sold. (Case in point: we own our flat and live on a council estate).

Ha ha, ok I may have misunderstood your point, but I had to chime in anyway.  I thought you were talking about your own personal experiences as a Yank in jolly old England.  I did notice some anti-immigrant talk while I was over there (about ten years ago, prime Bush/USA-bashing era) but I was the most shocked when I went to Austria and heard some comments about Turkish immigrants in their country.  Europeans, especially those on the mainland, are very Nationalistic I found (you're not German unless you have a German name, you're not French unless you have a French name, etc).  Things may be getting even worse, I don't know I haven't been there since I came home. 
"The first man who, having enclosed a piece of ground, bethought himself of saying 'This is mine,' and found people simple enough to believe him, was the real founder of civil society." - Jean Jacques Rousseau

Adam White

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Re: Abolish Prisons - Totally & Absolutely
« Reply #26 on: May 02, 2016, 10:22:15 AM »

Ha ha, ok I may have misunderstood your point, but I had to chime in anyway.  I thought you were talking about your own personal experiences as a Yank in jolly old England.  I did notice some anti-immigrant talk while I was over there (about ten years ago, prime Bush/USA-bashing era) but I was the most shocked when I went to Austria and heard some comments about Turkish immigrants in their country.  Europeans, especially those on the mainland, are very Nationalistic I found (you're not German unless you have a German name, you're not French unless you have a French name, etc).  Things may be getting even worse, I don't know I haven't been there since I came home.

I think it's got pretty nasty - though it's likely worse on the continent than it is in the UK. I guess these things are to be expected in times of austerity, but it's worrying. I remember when Tony Blair was elected (I was living in the USA then) - it seemed to be such an optimistic time. And in 2002 when the Euro was launched, too. Things seem so bleak now.

Edit: where did you live, by the way?

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Gunnar

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Re: Abolish Prisons - Totally & Absolutely
« Reply #27 on: May 03, 2016, 07:15:39 AM »
Hes an American Immigrant to London, Akira.



Oh the horror!  An American immigrant in England of all places! :) That's only about the easiest place on the planet for an American to assimilate and be accepted other than Canada (America's 51st State/America's adopted sibling/whatever you want to call it).  I lived in England for 8 months and about the worst thing I encountered was the dreadful constant 45 degree drizzle and 3 pm darkness from about October to May.  I don't recall anyone treating me as a seedy Yank who was just looking for a purse to snatch or a car to break into.  I did actually get asked one time "Can you really buy bazookas and machine guns at Walmart in America?"  My answer of course was. . . "ummmmmm, YEAH!  Of course you can! What is that weird?"  I think I managed to win over most Brits I encountered when I finally admitted "ok, I admit, it is kind of silly that our Football is called Football and the sport you play almost exclusively with your foot we call soccer."

Eight whole months?  :P

I'm talking about anti-immigrant rhetoric. Not anything directed at me, personally (although I have twice received abuse for being American - but in the span of almost 10 years, that's very little).

I don't know when it was that you lived here, but the attitude towards immigrants has likely worsened. At least it has in the outer London boroughs (I currently live in Havering and it's UKIP/BNP, pro-Brexit country).

As far as I'm concerned, I get sick of people bashing immigrants and complaining about how they come over here to get handouts and abuse the welfare system. When I point out that I've never done any of that sort of thing, I am told, "yeah, but you're different". Different how? Basically, that means white and English-speaking. Most people who moan about immigrants don't actually have any real evidence to support their claims.

If I'm different, then isn't it possible that most immigrants are different and don't fit the stereotype? As I mentioned before, none of the immigrants I know are criminals or work-shy benefits cheats. And the statistics show that more Britons are on benefits than immigrants (as a percentage). And that there is no demonstrable link between crime rates and immigration rates. But that doesn't stop people from trotting out the same, tired "facts" to support their racism.

I remember one girl I worked with complaining about the family that lived near her who had a council flat. When I pressed her on it, she admitted she knew nothing of their situation. She didn't know they were unemployed - she didn't know anything about their lives. It's just that they were dark-skinned and lived in a flat on a council estate. It's quite possible they weren't council/housing association tenants, but actually owned their flat, as Thatcher decimated available public housing stock by allowing it to be sold. (Case in point: we own our flat and live on a council estate).

Ha ha, ok I may have misunderstood your point, but I had to chime in anyway.  I thought you were talking about your own personal experiences as a Yank in jolly old England.  I did notice some anti-immigrant talk while I was over there (about ten years ago, prime Bush/USA-bashing era) but I was the most shocked when I went to Austria and heard some comments about Turkish immigrants in their country.  Europeans, especially those on the mainland, are very Nationalistic I found (you're not German unless you have a German name, you're not French unless you have a French name, etc).  Things may be getting even worse, I don't know I haven't been there since I came home.

Naming is a way of trying to fit in to the new / adopted country, in particular the first name, but sometimes also the last name. I guess Ramón Antonio Gerardo Estévez felt like he was more likely to succeed as "Martin Sheen" so he changed his last name. Doris Mary Ann Kappelhoff may have thought similarly.

This is not something that is new - or not still  on-going - in the USA, although I this may have lessened considerably.

http://www.genealogy.com/articles/research/88_donna.html

http://www.slate.com/blogs/moneybox/2014/03/28/american_names_immigrants_benefit_economically_from_cultural_assimilation.html

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/26/nyregion/26names.html?_r=0

Now what I am still looking for are statistics on first names given to immigrants' children (English sounding names vs. names from the parents' original country).

Also, continental European countries do not have the same historic immigration based background that the US does, so there is less experience with this.
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AKIRA

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Re: Abolish Prisons - Totally & Absolutely
« Reply #28 on: May 03, 2016, 09:45:05 PM »
Leaving the "Immgrants: love'em or hate 'em" side track..

What ideas do the prison abolitionists for containing the truly evil among us?

ronchamblin

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Re: Abolish Prisons - Totally & Absolutely
« Reply #29 on: January 10, 2018, 07:27:51 PM »
Prison is for the poor.  A respected lawyer has said the public defender system is broken. What follows is an example of the absurdity in sentencing that actually happened.  Three teenagers hold up the local barber shop, one stays in the car, one stands outside the shop and one holds up the place. They net $50. Now they can buy some weed. They get caught. Eventually all three take pleas. All three have no prior criminal record. Their court-appointed attorneys assure them they will get a couple of years and encourages the plea.

However the judge has other ideas. The judge in his sentencing order declares this a "horrible crime" deserving of a "severe sentence". He gives the guy who stood outside the shop and the one who stayed in the car a few years short of life using the "life expectancy tables" sending both away for 35 mandatory years (no parole eligibility). The stick-up guy, who pleads first, gets 10.

The way it works is, a jury could've sentenced them to life but a judge had to give them less than life; so an obvious incentive to plea.  The judge did not take any mitigating factors into consideration such as age, lack of criminal history, small damages, and no injuries. At his whim and prejudice, the judge buried them until they are well into their 50's without any chance for early release regardless of their young age at the time of the offense. The result is a total of 80 years combined at a cost of about $40,000 per year per inmate. So the big barber shop heist of $50 is going to cost the taxpayers around $3,000,000. What kind of deal is this? Plus it doesn't include 3 separate inmate appeals which can go on for 10 years a piece at taxpayer expense. What justifies this sort of thing? Not to mention the human toll.  Priceless.

Well, we know who benefits don't we? That's 80 years of free labor for X-corporations and 80 years of a full bed for Management and Training Corporation which took over the GEO contracts in MS after they fled town after the Walnut Grove debacle. What justifies this?

Judges should be held accountable by the voters, one way to hold them accountable, is to be informed and to vote. But it is little comfort.
I’m not for robbing barber shops, but I’m surely not for the utter destruction of people’s lives either.

We get some amazing individuals serving as judges.  Judge Hudson Olliff used to visit my store.  He is gone now, but during the later years, we would chat in the history aisle.  I was amazed at Olliff's racism. He astonished me with his comments about African Americans; and his views in general.  This man was a judge for at least three decades? 

Yes ... there are some fine judges in our courtrooms; professional ... quite capable, and able to weigh and study with some depth the intricate circumstances of a case so as to arrive at fair decisions.  These individuals encourage justice.  But I have on occasion observed shameful behavior as exhibited by some judges -- arrogant behavior, inappropriate, without true justice, fairness, or consideration of critical realities surrounding a situation.  Our city suffers from a few incompetents, and is rescued by the judges who demonstrate integrity and professionalism.