Author Topic: JEA is trying to Stop Rooftop Solar Power  (Read 14850 times)

finehoe

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Re: JEA is trying to Stop Rooftop Solar Power
« Reply #15 on: March 11, 2016, 01:31:04 PM »
From what I have read about them is that they arent against solar proper, they are against the tax credits solar gets from the Feds and states.

But the tax subsidies the oil industry receives are A-Okay.

NIMBY

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Re: JEA is trying to Stop Rooftop Solar Power
« Reply #16 on: March 11, 2016, 02:54:39 PM »
From what I have read about them is that they arent against solar proper, they are against the tax credits solar gets from the Feds and states.

But the tax subsidies the oil industry receives are A-Okay.

Actually they're against those, too.  They're against energy subsidies and corporate welfare more generally.  BUT, they play by the rules that exist today (taking their tax breaks and subsidies) and make a lot of money doing it.  However, they lobby to change a system that promotes crony capitalism by hopefully reducing the cronyism of it all.  Is it fair to call them hypocrites?  Yes.  Watch this interesting interview from back in November with Charles Koch on MSNBC about his views on corporate welfare: http://www.msnbc.com/morning-joe/watch/koch--i-want-to-end-corporate-welfare-557925955640.

I think the best argument for wind, solar, biofuels, and other alternative energy not being able to compete on cost vs. fossil fuels is based on the embedded environmental and health costs...but that is tricky to quantify, to say the least.  Carbon pricing is a minefield.

strider

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Re: JEA is trying to Stop Rooftop Solar Power
« Reply #17 on: March 11, 2016, 05:13:34 PM »
Folio weekly ran an article making the point that the reason this is occurring now is because Lenny Curry replaced JEA's board with people sympathetic to the Koch brothers http://folioweekly.com/WHATS-THE-COST-OF-SOLAR,14883

Lenny is turning out just awesome.

While politics certainly plays into this issue, I can see the reasoning behind JEA doing this.  In any business model selling any kind of goods or service, you must buy or produce for less than you sell for.  It seems to me that at the moment, JEA sells power for 11 cents and then buys any excess power for 11 cents.  A great deal for the solar power producer.  The article even stated that the higher purchasing price was to help kick start solar programs.  Perhaps it is indeed time to bring the purchase price into a more reasonable business model. This is not going to kill solar, it may reduce profits for some.  It may make it so that the ROI is less, but it won't stop it or kill it. It does seem that it will force the systems to be more competitive and that may not be such a bad thing. 

As to Lenny Curry's JEA appointees?  As they were not the ones suggesting this and this actually makes sense, yes, maybe Curry is more "awesome" than you think.
"My father says that almost the whole world is asleep. Everybody you know. Everybody you see. Everybody you talk to. He says that only a few people are awake and they live in a state of constant total amazement." Patrica, Joe VS the Volcano.

wnettles

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Re: JEA is trying to Stop Rooftop Solar Power
« Reply #18 on: March 18, 2016, 11:50:18 PM »
  I really dislike government regulation.  That being said, utilities like JEA which tend to alter their business models in order to "make 'em squeal", may be in deserved need of a little regulation.   If consumers and JEA customers go through all of the financial, legal, and regulatory hurtles that are cast in the path of "clean energy" and "self sufficiency", then, a little legal relief just might be in order.   If for no other reason, maybe, just to "level the playing field" for the consumer and utility customer.   After all, none of us really have the resources to take on a legal battle against any of the mega billion dollar power companies.   Any one of their lawyers, accountants, or lobbyists make many times the average yearly income of the average electric power consumer. 

  It was stated that the electric grid was not designed to accomidate the level of distributed generation that roof top solar power offers.     Just a guess, but, I would venture that less than 1% of all the generated power on the JEA grid is from rooftop solar.    The folks that fork out the money to produce rooftop solar power and offer it to other customers and JEA in order to offset some or all of their electrical power bill are thus penalized by the actions that JEA is proposing, in order that JEA can make more money.   

  Maybe it is time for JEA customers and consumers of electrical power throughout the state of Florida to demand legislation that would reward the costly efforts of those individuals who wish to make life better for their fellow citizens by permanently fortifying net metering legislation in our state.    To penalize the Herculean efforts of those individuals and businesses that are endevouring to improve the lot of the rest of us is just plain wrong.   

spuwho

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Re: JEA is trying to Stop Rooftop Solar Power
« Reply #19 on: March 19, 2016, 12:42:51 AM »
JEA is more than happy to provide a solar service offering to you. They go find the solar sources on the grid, mark it up for carriage costs and then charge you a "solar" per kWh rate.

This way, the homeowner doesnt have to put up the personal capital for the panels, JEA can recover their cost to service the meter and everyones conscience is clear.

I would consider it only if JEA publishes the book on how many sign up, how much solar they bought off the grid. How much tax benefits they got and and what their margins were in doing so.

Because I could easily see a utility charging twice as much for a "green energy" service and find that they using the margins or tax benefits to offset the pollution credits they have to buy for fossil.

If that were the case, it would defeat the whole purpose of the offering. It would look good on the surface, but would be "dirty" underneath.

kris

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Re: JEA is trying to Stop Rooftop Solar Power
« Reply #20 on: March 19, 2016, 10:12:03 AM »
I thought the idea in this 21st century was to move forward and become less dependent on fossil fuel- which is and has been the cause of all cancers, lymphomas and probably has lent itself to all the other MLS etc diseases that have become so prevalent in our country and the world.  Once again MONEY takes front and center the greed of these companies.  All the politicians that we elect to help guide this country are of course bought and paid for by these people.  Not a one of them has a complete set of balls among them to stand up and try to do something that might actually move this country forward.  How disgusting, disturbing and sad.  I am a Democrat but do understand the followers of Trump.  The Washington establishment are so scared to death of the shake up that would occur with Trump and they would loose everything their corrupt ways of doing things would be seriously jeopardized .  Same thing with this solar- it makes no sense in a state like ours that everything should be almost completely run by the sun  !!!  No Brainer.  Citizens please go and vote- educate yourselfs on the few that are running that they can be independent  and has a full set to stand up for you and this state.   

finehoe

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Re: JEA is trying to Stop Rooftop Solar Power
« Reply #21 on: March 19, 2016, 11:48:48 AM »
  I really dislike government regulation. 

In other words, you have no issue with tainted food be sold to the public, unsafe consumer products, employers being able to place their workers in danger with impunity, corporate fouling of the air and water....

brucef58

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Re: JEA is trying to Stop Rooftop Solar Power
« Reply #22 on: March 19, 2016, 04:52:26 PM »
The JEA is being unfairly picked on for trying to represent the interests of its owners who are also us, its ratepayers.   Currently with 1/2 of 1% of all energy coming from solar the net metering at 11 cents per KWh does not make a difference.  The 4 cent per KWh difference between that and power from fossil fuels (or nuclear) comes to about one quarter ($0.25) per month for a typical residential user.  The issue is when we reach 10% solar the cost for everyone else will rise to $5.00 per month and at 20% to $10.00 month. 

Because of the fact that night is already 1/2 of the annual time and clouds put a major dent in the rest of the time, solar cannot be effective more than 28% of the time to generate power.  As a pretty little fluffy white cloud flies over the photovoltaic unit the power level drops instantly from 100% to zero.  We need backup power or storage and we need it to be constant.

All net metering at 7 cents per KWh instead of 11 cents per KWh is prevent those who depend on fossil fuels who are usually not as wealthy as those on solar from paying them a premium over fossil fuels for power.  Solar is fine for those who want to go that route but it should not be subsidized by everyone else paying a premium to those people for power.

Stop picking on utilities and question the ethics of someone who sells a product that supposed saves money but has a 20 to 25 year payback with subsidies and never will pay for itself without.  To say that the grid is not needed by those on solar is totally wrong as what do they do for power the 72% of the time that solar is ineffectual? 

brucef58

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Re: JEA is trying to Stop Rooftop Solar Power
« Reply #23 on: March 19, 2016, 05:01:10 PM »
Regarding the comparison to Germany.  Because Germany pays such a high premium to its solar producers who provide 6% of the energy they are one of the most expensive nations in the world if you are an energy consumer.  Germany is actually giving in to their Green party and shutting down nuclear which has drastically increased their coal and coal by wire energy percentage and their greenhouse gas emissions.

MusicMan

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Re: JEA is trying to Stop Rooftop Solar Power
« Reply #24 on: March 20, 2016, 03:36:16 PM »
"As a pretty little fluffy white cloud flies over the photovoltaic unit the power level drops instantly from 100% to zero. "

NOT TRUE.



How do cloudy conditions affect solar power generation:

Answer here...........................http://understandsolar.com/solar-panels-and-clouds/

Gunnar

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Re: JEA is trying to Stop Rooftop Solar Power
« Reply #25 on: March 21, 2016, 04:30:01 AM »
Regarding the comparison to Germany.  Because Germany pays such a high premium to its solar producers who provide 6% of the energy they are one of the most expensive nations in the world if you are an energy consumer.  Germany is actually giving in to their Green party and shutting down nuclear which has drastically increased their coal and coal by wire energy percentage and their greenhouse gas emissions.

Yup - solar is still heavily subsidized by the bill payer. The bad effect is that due to there (at times) being an overabundance of electricity, the exchange price (before the solar subsidy mark-up!) has fallen so that only coal is competitive. New and efficient gas turbines had to go offline since they could no longer compete.

Add to that the fact that electricty supply needs to be predictable and stable (which solar and wind are not, at least not here in Germany), many conventional plants have to be kept on stand by which again adds to the electric bill and solar peaks are causing problems for the grid.

In terms of putting panels on the roofs, that is causing problems in case of a fire. Solar panels cannot be turned off, so they pose an electrocution risk to the fire fighters and as they make the roof heavier, a house will collapse much faster in case of fire. For political reasons, homeowners insurance is not increased for those who have solar panels, so those who do not subsidize panels a second time.

I am not against renewable energy sources but as a reliable and stable grid is very important, this should be done in a proper manner.

On the plus side, the German govts politics wrt renewables have helped kickstart the  solar industry and brought panel prices down. Unfortunately, the industry was not supported where the govt would have liked to - initially, panel prices did not come down even though production cost did considerably. There was so much demand that manufacturers did not need to pass on their savings and to earn even more production was outsourced to China. Once the Chinese manufacturers had the knowledge, they decided to sell directly and as an end result plants over here were and are closing.
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spuwho

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Re: JEA is trying to Stop Rooftop Solar Power
« Reply #26 on: April 04, 2016, 11:00:55 PM »
Maybe they are afraid Ikea is coming to town with their rooftop solar built in.

Ikea loves solar! Here is their Twin Cities store.



I was also advised that JEA does pretty well off their solar farm out in Baldwin. The carbon credits alone make up for the addition to their rate mix.



I always said that if WalMart could run solar on every roof on every store they have in the US, they would create enough fossil fuel offset and carbon credits, it could be a revenue source for the next 25-30 years.

spuwho

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Re: JEA is trying to Stop Rooftop Solar Power
« Reply #27 on: April 04, 2016, 11:41:56 PM »
The Saft battery plant at Cecil Commerce Center seems to have it down. Lots of solar.


Gunnar

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Re: JEA is trying to Stop Rooftop Solar Power
« Reply #28 on: April 05, 2016, 05:14:35 AM »
Maybe they are afraid Ikea is coming to town with their rooftop solar built in.

Ikea loves solar! Here is their Twin Cities store.




In southern Spain, where outdoor parking lots are often covered, Ikea installs solar panels on top of that. Also a nice idea.

I want to live in a society where people can voice unpopular opinions because I know that as a result of that, a society grows and matures...” — Hugh Hefner

spuwho

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Re: JEA is trying to Stop Rooftop Solar Power
« Reply #29 on: April 05, 2016, 12:59:25 PM »
We tried to get these installed at an office park in Jacksonville.  Unfortunately the funding fell through.

What was nice about these is they each have plug in stations for cars that have outlets for charging.