Author Topic: Duval County Map 1898  (Read 17537 times)

Know Growth

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Re: Duval County Map 1898
« Reply #15 on: January 28, 2016, 06:04:37 PM »

Two and a half feet deep at the mouth of Fishweir Creek- this confirms other notes, observations that the creek mouth was 'always' shallow. This map was a part of the somewhat recent US Army Corps Of Engineers Fishweir Creek Restoration analysis.

Previously existing shallow condition a hint, why just a relatively small amount of development induced siltation has 'filled' the creek,Fishweir creek Woodmere road homes,Little Fishweir creek homes,among others, built on former marsh shoreline.

Looks like a number of stand alone wetland islands throughout the county have disappeared.

At one time I was involved in Title Insurance/Title Abstract and it was fun to run a parcel's history all the way back to the basic maps,Grants.

Thanks for Sharing Bridgetroll!

BridgeTroll

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Re: Duval County Map 1898
« Reply #16 on: January 29, 2016, 06:44:20 AM »
Check out the dotted line from Fishweir/Ceder creek diagonally across Duval County labeled... "Proposed Florida Ship Canal 1883-84"
In a boat at sea one of the men began to bore a hole in the bottom of the boat. On being remonstrating with, he answered, "I am only boring under my own seat." "Yes," said his companions, "but when the sea rushes in we shall all be drowned with you."

BridgeTroll

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Re: Duval County Map 1898
« Reply #17 on: January 29, 2016, 08:10:36 AM »
Finally actually downloaded the TIFF... great improvement of resolution!  So... found my house on Google Earth and noted the Lat-Long then referred to the map to try and locate but... something seemed off.  So I found a distinguishable landmark on both maps and have concluded that the 1898 version is about 1 minute of Longitude off.  So if something was at the 81* 46' longitude on Google Earth simply add 1 minute to make it 81* 47'...

I keep finding new stuff on this incredible map and to explore it fully I recommend downloading it...  8)
In a boat at sea one of the men began to bore a hole in the bottom of the boat. On being remonstrating with, he answered, "I am only boring under my own seat." "Yes," said his companions, "but when the sea rushes in we shall all be drowned with you."

BridgeTroll

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Re: Duval County Map 1898
« Reply #18 on: January 29, 2016, 08:53:16 AM »
Upon further review... the Longitudes are correct... my error seemed to occur with a couple of tears in the map... lol. :-[
In a boat at sea one of the men began to bore a hole in the bottom of the boat. On being remonstrating with, he answered, "I am only boring under my own seat." "Yes," said his companions, "but when the sea rushes in we shall all be drowned with you."

Know Growth

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Re: Duval County Map 1898
« Reply #19 on: January 29, 2016, 03:59:26 PM »
Check out the dotted line from Fishweir/Ceder creek diagonally across Duval County labeled... "Proposed Florida Ship Canal 1883-84"

Likely one of the many proposed Cross Florida Canal routes.........finally ended up with preferred alternative and build in the 1960's.....Ocklawaha/Rodman Pool route

Know Growth

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Re: Duval County Map 1898
« Reply #20 on: February 03, 2016, 08:34:47 PM »

So,by 1898 "Cow Ford" gone- the St. Johns River Shoal  that accommodated, according to Legend, Cattle River Walk walk,gone..........dug out,'dredged'. Although nearby shallow water feature (later deepened) still evident.

Note too roadways and settlement located at present day Mill Cove, dirt berms.

Present day Southwest Avondale then undeveloped shore line,Roosevelt Publix et al location solid swamp,same for Ortega "Hunt" lands.

Imagine the general River Public Access opportunities,natural river/wetland system this era of presence,development  offered.

Know Growth

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Re: Duval County Map 1898
« Reply #21 on: February 03, 2016, 09:33:41 PM »
the cow ford is still there. Its just a line where cows crossed the river.. It was just an economic activity, not a city name.
[/quote)



On this map circa 1898 I do not see St Johns River  waterway depth reference that would accommodate cow fording...walking from one shore to the other.

Where,precisely,was the river Cow Walk location? Assumed to be where the River shores squeezed closest together. Or simply legend?
« Last Edit: February 03, 2016, 09:40:01 PM by Know Growth »

Know Growth

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Re: Duval County Map 1898
« Reply #22 on: February 03, 2016, 09:51:54 PM »
the channel had to be dug.  it was wide and shallow, just the way that most of it still is.  but shallowest at the cow fording line. Charging a fee for it was how we paid for the Sheriffs.

 8) Fascinating. Thank you for the insight. Perhaps I have just missed most reference but such notes on the actual cow fording feature are a rarity.

We can note earliest area tributary crossings. Where specifically was the cow fording line?

« Last Edit: February 03, 2016, 09:54:05 PM by Know Growth »

Know Growth

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Re: Duval County Map 1898
« Reply #23 on: February 09, 2016, 10:24:20 PM »
the cow ford is still there. Its just a line where cows crossed the river.. It was just an economic activity, not a city name.

10/4

An "Imaginary Indian Metropolis"

Waca Pilatka

Vaca Pilatka   Cow Crossing 

Located per present day Liberty Street

Where the 'fording' cows imaginary too?

Don't forget tidal flow!.......We must assume that crossings typically occurred at low tide periods.

If in fact there existed a fordable river section, the shallow waters would have been historically defining, both as to ecosystem influence,specific feature and human efforts to deepen.

Imagine the present day narrow and deep sections of river tidal waters passing over 'fordable' waters at approximately Liberty Street.
A huge volume of water gushing over the shallow ford (shoal),even high tide periods would have produced 'rapids',convoluted water columns (Per acknowledged past Miami River 'rapids')

If a fordable shoal existed,when in fact did human efforts at deepening occur? Are there early maps or other depictions of a bonafide shore to shore fordable shoal?

It's 70 feet deep in front of the Landing,which might suggest a natural deep pool adjacent to shoal/water action.Or a result of human dredge efforts?

The Spanish erected Outposts well upstream-one at present day Clay County,one at present day St Johns County,in hopes of preventing an invasion via the St Johns River......1734. Apparently the existence of a natural shoal blockage to vessel passage was of no consequence.Or perhaps passage over the 'ford'/shoal occurred at high tide? By the 1850's the 260 ton,140 foot steamboat "Magnolia" was making runs between Palatka and Savannah. More 'ship' activity followed.Perhaps General Land office Survey maps circa 1835 might lend a hint to past river depth.

If a fordable shoal existed river hydrology must have been drastically altered as a result of human deepening.
« Last Edit: February 09, 2016, 11:13:31 PM by Know Growth »

Tacachale

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Re: Duval County Map 1898
« Reply #24 on: February 09, 2016, 10:49:21 PM »
The Cow Ford crossing was real, but I doubt it was ever shallow enough to actually ford cows across. The British built a ferry in 1765. I imagine the name "Cow Ford" was just an inexact translation of the Seminole-Creek name, generally given as "Waca Pilatka", which has a somewhat different sense. "Waca" (wakv) means "cow" in Creek, but "Pilatka" may be a corruption of the Creek pilotaikita, meaning "crossing" or "boat crossing".
Do you believe that when the blue jay or another bird sings and the body is trembling, that is a signal that people are coming or something important is about to happen?

Tacachale

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Re: Duval County Map 1898
« Reply #25 on: February 10, 2016, 09:41:16 AM »
The Cow Ford crossing was real, but I doubt it was ever shallow enough to actually ford cows across. The British built a ferry in 1765. I imagine the name "Cow Ford" was just an inexact translation of the Seminole-Creek name, generally given as "Waca Pilatka", which has a somewhat different sense. "Waca" (wakv) means "cow" in Creek, but "Pilatka" may be a corruption of the Creek pilotaikita, meaning "crossing" or "boat crossing".

Waca is a Creek adaptation of the spanish word for Cow: "Vaca"

Cows are not indigenous to the US.

The river was certainly shallow enough to ford cattle, however. It was the main duty of the early sheriffs, and how they got paid (they charged a fee for guiding across, apparently it was tricky)

We aren't the first generation to think the river needed to be deepened however.

Obviously cows aren't indigenous to America, but they were well established by the time the Creeks and Brits came to Florida in the mid-1700s. The British formalized the Cow Ford crossing and posted a ferry as soon as 1765. Needing a boat to cross suggests it was too deep to walk across, at least not at the same place. The river was deep enough to sail on pretty far upstream, as William Bartram did in 1774.
Do you believe that when the blue jay or another bird sings and the body is trembling, that is a signal that people are coming or something important is about to happen?

BridgeTroll

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Re: Duval County Map 1898
« Reply #26 on: February 10, 2016, 10:16:30 AM »
The Cow Ford crossing was real, but I doubt it was ever shallow enough to actually ford cows across. The British built a ferry in 1765. I imagine the name "Cow Ford" was just an inexact translation of the Seminole-Creek name, generally given as "Waca Pilatka", which has a somewhat different sense. "Waca" (wakv) means "cow" in Creek, but "Pilatka" may be a corruption of the Creek pilotaikita, meaning "crossing" or "boat crossing".

Waca is a Creek adaptation of the spanish word for Cow: "Vaca"

Cows are not indigenous to the US.

The river was certainly shallow enough to ford cattle, however. It was the main duty of the early sheriffs, and how they got paid (they charged a fee for guiding across, apparently it was tricky)

We aren't the first generation to think the river needed to be deepened however.

Obviously cows aren't indigenous to America, but they were well established by the time the Creeks and Brits came to Florida in the mid-1700s. The British formalized the Cow Ford crossing and posted a ferry as soon as 1765. Needing a boat to cross suggests it was too deep to walk across, at least not at the same place. The river was deep enough to sail on pretty far upstream, as William Bartram did in 1774.

That's what I see Tach... I see a river clearly too deep and swift for cattle to wade across particularly at the narrow points near downtown.  Perhaps the shallow point for crossing was farther upstream but it still does not seem likely.  Do cattle ford rivers by swimming?  Could "cow" or "Vaca" or "waca" be slang or a descriptive term for the type of boat used in a ferry or crossing?
In a boat at sea one of the men began to bore a hole in the bottom of the boat. On being remonstrating with, he answered, "I am only boring under my own seat." "Yes," said his companions, "but when the sea rushes in we shall all be drowned with you."

RattlerGator

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Re: Duval County Map 1898
« Reply #27 on: February 10, 2016, 10:56:03 AM »
Obviously cows aren't indigenous to America, but they were well established by the time the Creeks and Brits came to Florida in the mid-1700s. The British formalized the Cow Ford crossing and posted a ferry as soon as 1765. Needing a boat to cross suggests it was too deep to walk across, at least not at the same place. The river was deep enough to sail on pretty far upstream, as William Bartram did in 1774.

Hmmm . . . looks like local mythology bites the dust yet again.

Tacachale

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Re: Duval County Map 1898
« Reply #28 on: February 10, 2016, 11:26:56 AM »
The Cow Ford crossing was real, but I doubt it was ever shallow enough to actually ford cows across. The British built a ferry in 1765. I imagine the name "Cow Ford" was just an inexact translation of the Seminole-Creek name, generally given as "Waca Pilatka", which has a somewhat different sense. "Waca" (wakv) means "cow" in Creek, but "Pilatka" may be a corruption of the Creek pilotaikita, meaning "crossing" or "boat crossing".

Waca is a Creek adaptation of the spanish word for Cow: "Vaca"

Cows are not indigenous to the US.

The river was certainly shallow enough to ford cattle, however. It was the main duty of the early sheriffs, and how they got paid (they charged a fee for guiding across, apparently it was tricky)

We aren't the first generation to think the river needed to be deepened however.

Obviously cows aren't indigenous to America, but they were well established by the time the Creeks and Brits came to Florida in the mid-1700s. The British formalized the Cow Ford crossing and posted a ferry as soon as 1765. Needing a boat to cross suggests it was too deep to walk across, at least not at the same place. The river was deep enough to sail on pretty far upstream, as William Bartram did in 1774.

That's what I see Tach... I see a river clearly too deep and swift for cattle to wade across particularly at the narrow points near downtown.  Perhaps the shallow point for crossing was farther upstream but it still does not seem likely.  Do cattle ford rivers by swimming?  Could "cow" or "Vaca" or "waca" be slang or a descriptive term for the type of boat used in a ferry or crossing?

Anything's possible. It could be that the English name was a total misunderstanding of an Indian or Spanish name. We do know that people did cross there as it was the crossing of the British King's Road, which was maintained into the Second Spanish period and the American period. However, cows can indeed swim, so it's possible they swam them over instead of fording them, and just used "Ford" for what the Creeks called "Crossing"/"Boat Crossing".

Do you believe that when the blue jay or another bird sings and the body is trembling, that is a signal that people are coming or something important is about to happen?

BridgeTroll

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Re: Duval County Map 1898
« Reply #29 on: February 10, 2016, 11:30:00 AM »
Hmmm... Water too deep?  Ferry or Ford the cattle across by boat...



In a boat at sea one of the men began to bore a hole in the bottom of the boat. On being remonstrating with, he answered, "I am only boring under my own seat." "Yes," said his companions, "but when the sea rushes in we shall all be drowned with you."