Author Topic: JTA Board Approves Resolution to Modernize Skyway  (Read 19292 times)

thelakelander

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Re: JTA Board Approves Resolution to Modernize Skyway
« Reply #15 on: December 11, 2015, 11:48:55 AM »
Getting the skyway to San Marco is easy. An extension would go over the FEC behind the park, Aardwolf and the tennis courts. At that point, you'd drop it to grade and terminate it at Atlantic.
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BridgeTroll

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Re: JTA Board Approves Resolution to Modernize Skyway
« Reply #16 on: December 11, 2015, 01:09:21 PM »
Do you think they will keep it free or begin charging again?
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BenderRodriguez

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Re: JTA Board Approves Resolution to Modernize Skyway
« Reply #17 on: December 11, 2015, 01:29:20 PM »
Good news. Now lets see how creative JTA can be.

Hopefully not "First Coast Flyer" creative...

camarocane

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Re: JTA Board Approves Resolution to Modernize Skyway
« Reply #18 on: December 11, 2015, 02:03:55 PM »
I wonder if any of this will incorporate Streetcar. I know that the folks of San Marco (assuming the extension would go out there) will likely be diametrically opposed to an elevated route above Hendricks. Connecting the current Kings Ave Station to the square or even down to University via Trolly would likely be the best bet.

I doubt Riverside would have an issue with an elevated route heading into Five Points or to Stockton St, so I can see an actual Skyway extension to that neighborhood.

The FEC line through San Marco makes streetcar an impossibility some sort of elevated track has to cross the rail line before it can transition to an at grade system.  Some pioneers are trying to start a long term conversation of burying the FEC line from Atlantic to the bridge.  Try to drive down Hendricks to work on a weekday and you'll see why this is an idea worth considering.

Although I do think this would be the best alternative, try pulling any crossing permit with FEC (or any railroad)... scoff.

Ock, you around? Any idea what the minumum turning radius would be for a streetcar? APTA states 60' to the CL of the car, could you navigate the streets of San Marco with this standard?

E_Dubya

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Re: JTA Board Approves Resolution to Modernize Skyway
« Reply #19 on: December 11, 2015, 02:14:58 PM »
Good news. Now lets see how creative JTA can be.

Hopefully not "First Coast Flyer" creative...

Speak for yourself. That bright green of the North Line sure does pop. That's progress enough, right?

thelakelander

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Re: JTA Board Approves Resolution to Modernize Skyway
« Reply #20 on: December 11, 2015, 03:16:31 PM »
Do you think they will keep it free or begin charging again?
If they charge, they'll have to pay more for new fare collection equipment.
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thelakelander

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Re: JTA Board Approves Resolution to Modernize Skyway
« Reply #21 on: December 11, 2015, 03:21:34 PM »
I wonder if any of this will incorporate Streetcar. I know that the folks of San Marco (assuming the extension would go out there) will likely be diametrically opposed to an elevated route above Hendricks. Connecting the current Kings Ave Station to the square or even down to University via Trolly would likely be the best bet.

I doubt Riverside would have an issue with an elevated route heading into Five Points or to Stockton St, so I can see an actual Skyway extension to that neighborhood.

The FEC line through San Marco makes streetcar an impossibility some sort of elevated track has to cross the rail line before it can transition to an at grade system.  Some pioneers are trying to start a long term conversation of burying the FEC line from Atlantic to the bridge.  Try to drive down Hendricks to work on a weekday and you'll see why this is an idea worth considering.

Although I do think this would be the best alternative, try pulling any crossing permit with FEC (or any railroad)... scoff.

Ock, you around? Any idea what the minumum turning radius would be for a streetcar? APTA states 60' to the CL of the car, could you navigate the streets of San Marco with this standard?

Here's a map that includes the Skyway's potential expansion routes:



If you were to use a streetcar/LRT type vehicle, assume the line would be elevated until crossing the FEC. At that point, you'd drop down to grade with the FEC no longer being an issue.
« Last Edit: December 12, 2015, 12:59:27 PM by Ocklawaha »
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thelakelander

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Re: JTA Board Approves Resolution to Modernize Skyway
« Reply #22 on: December 11, 2015, 03:32:01 PM »
An elevated route will never make it to Riverside. If new cars are APM, expansion will be limited. If something that can operate at grade, without blocking streets, you could literally expand anywhere you want to go.

Absolutely. The question is how much street space it would take up. The widening of Park Street in Brooklyn lends itself to that. The following issue is: do you run the APM West on Forest Street once Park narrows, or you you remove two lanes after the intersection of Forest? Do you widen Edison in order to connect to Stockton, or do you keep the extension minimal? I'll be itnerested to see what, if anything substantial, comes of this. I've learned to keep my hopes in check when it comes to public transit in Jax.

No street in Jax needs to widened for streetcar, BRT, Skyway or any other transit mode. Road diets are your solution here. Just remove a lane or two for cars and dedicate that space to transit and bike. In streets with big grass medians, transit ROW can be incorporated into them. There are examples all over the US on how to deal with this. Here are a few:

Houston - LRT added in roadway median:


Cleveland - BRT dedicated lanes replace roadway lanes:



San Diego - Trolley LRT in suburban roadway median:
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Ocklawaha

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Re: JTA Board Approves Resolution to Modernize Skyway
« Reply #23 on: December 11, 2015, 06:47:59 PM »
I wonder if any of this will incorporate Streetcar. I know that the folks of San Marco (assuming the extension would go out there) will likely be diametrically opposed to an elevated route above Hendricks. Connecting the current Kings Ave Station to the square or even down to University via Trolly would likely be the best bet.

I doubt Riverside would have an issue with an elevated route heading into Five Points or to Stockton St, so I can see an actual Skyway extension to that neighborhood.

The FEC line through San Marco makes streetcar an impossibility some sort of elevated track has to cross the rail line before it can transition to an at grade system.  Some pioneers are trying to start a long term conversation of burying the FEC line from Atlantic to the bridge.  Try to drive down Hendricks to work on a weekday and you'll see why this is an idea worth considering.

Although I do think this would be the best alternative, try pulling any crossing permit with FEC (or any railroad)... scoff.

Ock, you around? Any idea what the minumum turning radius would be for a streetcar? APTA states 60' to the CL of the car, could you navigate the streets of San Marco with this standard?

Turning radius: The streetcar MUST have the ability to move through an urban environment with minimal acquisition of land. The wheel-rail relationship is critical so you must plan these curves with the idea of minimizing wheel or rail wear which could in worst circumstances lead to derailments. Old streetcar systems (and San Marco, Springfield, Riverside are full of old streetcar routes just under the modern pavement) would use a curve radius of 40-50 feet centerline radius, Philadelphia uses 35 feet (think PCC Cars). Today, you'd want to use either a heritage type PCC  or Tampa style heritage car (the cheap start) or go with modern articulated unit vehicles to prevent corner clips. With the line engineered (and this might include some sway in the track to allow for the classic 'button hook turn') to a modern standard of at least a 66' foot radius your choice of equipment is virtually unlimited. 82' feet if you want to build to Light Rail Standards as Tampa has done so streetcars and LRV's can co-exist on the same track. Anything below 59' feet today really limits your choices of modern streetcars.

A couple more numbers?

Figure engineering Maximum Grades at 6% but streetcars are completely capable of 9%, so a short exception in the area of our bridges is possible if needed.

Maximum speeds for streetcars 35-45 MPH depending on how it's ordered and how it's allowed to operate. Obviously a streetcar on Bay Street in mixed traffic isn't going any faster than a JTA bus or anybody else, but the JTA contention that 12 MPH is ''The Speed" is bunk, that is merely an estimated average in mixed traffic in the urban core and their own buses do no better. Give back that grand median on Pearl or Main Street and the streetcar can race your BRT bus...only it has faster acceleration. A right-of-way parallel to one of our Railroads protected by crossing gates and the same streetcar can become 'Rapid Streetcar' at 45 MPH between stations imitating Light Rail on a budget.

As for at-grade crossings, they CAN BE DONE, but they SHOULD BE AVOIDED.

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Re: JTA Board Approves Resolution to Modernize Skyway
« Reply #24 on: December 11, 2015, 10:54:54 PM »
I never realized how much further the stadium is from where the skyway turns by the landing.

Are the "middle cars" for the existing skyway cars not an option? Too old? Did we ever buy them? The platforms look ready for something bigger, and I remember seeing a middle car somewhere if I recall correctly.
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jaxjaguar

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Re: JTA Board Approves Resolution to Modernize Skyway
« Reply #25 on: December 11, 2015, 11:52:53 PM »
To the best of my knowledge there's never been a "middle car". The current cars are larger than the originals though. The platforms are definitely designed for much larger trains / more trains.

thelakelander

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Re: JTA Board Approves Resolution to Modernize Skyway
« Reply #26 on: December 12, 2015, 12:08:35 AM »
The middle car was never made and the cars we have now, aren't produced anymore. They're relics.
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spuwho

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Re: JTA Board Approves Resolution to Modernize Skyway
« Reply #27 on: December 12, 2015, 12:15:18 AM »
I wonder if any of this will incorporate Streetcar. I know that the folks of San Marco (assuming the extension would go out there) will likely be diametrically opposed to an elevated route above Hendricks. Connecting the current Kings Ave Station to the square or even down to University via Trolly would likely be the best bet.

I doubt Riverside would have an issue with an elevated route heading into Five Points or to Stockton St, so I can see an actual Skyway extension to that neighborhood.

The FEC line through San Marco makes streetcar an impossibility some sort of elevated track has to cross the rail line before it can transition to an at grade system.  Some pioneers are trying to start a long term conversation of burying the FEC line from Atlantic to the bridge.  Try to drive down Hendricks to work on a weekday and you'll see why this is an idea worth considering.

Here is what the LA-Port of Long Beach "bury the rail" looks like.



The problem with burying the rail here is that you don't have a lot of elevation to work with and combined with a high water table makes maintenance a little dicey.  I would hate to think what would happen if there was a hurricane surge up the St Johns, all that water will try to go into the opening.

thelakelander

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Re: JTA Board Approves Resolution to Modernize Skyway
« Reply #28 on: December 12, 2015, 08:27:06 AM »
Obviously with no seal level rise or storm surge issues to face, Reno did something similar through their downtown a few years ago.  The ReTRAC project depressed over 2 miles of train track that run directly through Downtown Reno. A 54-foot wide, 33-foot deep train trench was built at the cost of $265 million, creating 120 new acres for future development at ground level. Here's a few images I took during this year's Next City conference:



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Ocklawaha

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Re: JTA Board Approves Resolution to Modernize Skyway
« Reply #29 on: December 12, 2015, 12:58:06 PM »
Around 1928 the City of South Jacksonville filed suit for cause of getting overpasses over those tracks.... Don't hold your breath on a ditch! If the ditch flooded it would sever rail freight service to the massive intermodal facility in Titusville as well as everything from the current FEC drawbridge to West Palm Beach.

It's worlds cheaper just to overpass the railroad at the various choke points and streetcar on the Skyway projection or on a surface street would have zero problem getting over the hump.