Author Topic: 1634 Ionia - owner requested demolition  (Read 121865 times)

movedsouth

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Re: 1634 Ionia - owner requested demolition
« Reply #30 on: August 29, 2015, 02:00:14 PM »
Here is a Google Earth picture showing the roof.

« Last Edit: August 30, 2015, 04:13:46 PM by movedsouth »


sheclown

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Re: 1634 Ionia - owner requested demolition
« Reply #31 on: August 29, 2015, 05:00:08 PM »
Here are two pictures I took earlier today. The roof above the main structure looks ok. It is just the extension in the back that is badly damaged (I guess by the fire)







Obviously the metal roof is the addition with the fire damage.

The shingle roof is the original part of the house (of course the roof is NOT original).

« Last Edit: August 30, 2015, 05:15:06 PM by sheclown »

acme54321

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Re: 1634 Ionia - owner requested demolition
« Reply #32 on: August 29, 2015, 09:18:31 PM »
That addition must be pretty old with that metal shingle roof. 

strider

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Re: 1634 Ionia - owner requested demolition
« Reply #33 on: August 30, 2015, 08:05:39 AM »
The Property Appraiser data base lists this house as being built in 1909.  From pictures, that may be pretty close.  The main house was about 1500 or so SF and I would guess the large addition was added by 1920.  Not unusual to see houses expanded then just like is often done today.  Also not unusual was the fact that this house was turned into a triplex.  Many houses were converted to duplexes in the teens as there was a housing shortage as the country and industry geared up for WWI.  Then, houses were converted into apartments to handle a housing shortage at the beginning of WWII. If this property was converted to a triplex during the period of significance, it can remain a triplex today if the owner so chooses. In fact, as it is listed as a legal triplex, it would be hard to tell the owner it had to be back to single family.  That said, if one were to take the addition off, it would seem best to convert it back to a single family. 

I suspect that if you talked to a Springfield realtor and got a reasonable selling price for that single family and then worked backwards, one would easily see a profit from the rehab and eventual sale of this house.  Worst case is you might want to lease it out for a few years to see if the market continues to work it's way up.
« Last Edit: August 31, 2015, 08:31:29 AM by strider »
"My father says that almost the whole world is asleep. Everybody you know. Everybody you see. Everybody you talk to. He says that only a few people are awake and they live in a state of constant total amazement." Patrica, Joe VS the Volcano.

strider

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Re: 1634 Ionia - owner requested demolition
« Reply #34 on: August 30, 2015, 12:30:08 PM »
How many residential structures are in the Springfield Historic District? Where are the boundaries of this Historic District? How many structures are in excellent condition? How many in good condition? How many in poor or worse condition? 

JaxNYC79 makes a lot of excellent points:

"Springfield still lacks that dense critical mass of restored gems that would give it the buzz of a happening and rebounding historic district."

"Perhaps I missed the right routes when I visited."

Springfield is block to block and house to house. Saving a house just because it's old will never fly in the 21st Century.  Stating that a boarded up house is better than a vacant lot is an opinion. I am a Realtor and I've sold quite a few homes in Springfield. Right now the principal draw is that is way cheaper than Riverside Avondale and San Marco. NOT the amenities. NOT the Restaurants. NOT Shantytown.
In my opinion the future of Springfield is a combination of the new construction like Terra Wise and LowCountry Classics and expert restorations of architecturally interesting homes. There is a lot of poverty still there and slum lords are very difficult to remove. That may never change, as slum lords often leave their properties to children, or sell to other slum lords. There are also drug dealers living there. One of my repeat customers (3 renovated houses so far) sees the activity on a regular basis.

Springfield was apparently neglected for a long period of time, and it will take just as long to get it to that critical mass that JaxNYC79 speaks about.



To answer some of your questions, here's a link to a post on MJ: http://www.metrojacksonville.com/forum/index.php/topic,21083.0.html

as a summary though:

Just to recap, we have lost in the past 28 to now working on 29 years, at least 360 contributing structures (20%) and at least 170 structures listed as non-contributing (45%) or 25% of the structures within the Historic District of Springfield are gone. The means on the average over one every single month since we have been a historic district. Non-contributing structures, without any protections I might add, are fairing a bit better at only one every other month since we have been a Historic District. If I was a house, I might like my odds a bit better on that non-contributing list.  At least in Springfield, the odds of surviving each year is 50% better than being a protect historic house.

And yes, there is official supporting documentation to confirm my figures.

You can find the bounds of the Historic District here: http://www.coj.net/departments/planning-and-development/community-planning-division/default/springfield-historic-district.aspx   along with the regulations that must be followed. 

Interestingly enough, you must follow those regulations even if you were left out of the Historic District but are within the area covered by the Springfield Zoning Overlay, which is:

Beginning at the west side of North Main Street where it crosses Hogans Creek; thence north and west along Hogans Creek to Broad Street; thence north along the centerline of Broad Street and Boulevard to the abandoned Seaboard Coast Line railroad right-of-way to north of West 12th Street; thence east along the abandoned railroad right-of-way to North Pearl Street; thence south along the centerline of North Pearl Street to West 12th Street; thence east along the centerline of West 12th Street to North Main Street; thence north along the center of North Main Street to the abandoned Seaboard Coast Line railroad right-of-way north of Warren Street; thence east along the railroad right-of-way to Walnut Street; thence south along the centerline of Walnut Street to East 11th Street; thence east along the centerline of East 11th Street to the right-of-way of the St. Johns River Terminal Company railroad located just east of Ionia Street and Clark Street; thence south along said railroad right-of-way to East First Street; thence west along the centerline of East First Street to its intersection with Walnut Street; thence south along the centerline of Walnut Street to Phelps Street; thence west along the centerline of Phelps Street to North Market Street; thence south along the centerline of North Market Street to its crossing over Hogans Creek; thence west and north along Hogans Creek to the point of beginning.

It is worth mentioning here that the city has attempted to both totally wipe out Springfield or at least taken down every empty house as fast as possible in the past.  It has been through the hard work of folks like those that are standing up for this particular house today that we even have a single house left here to argue about.

What I need to do is see if I can figure out what percentage of the total empty lots have had new construction houses built on them.  I suspect as an educated guess the percentage will be in the 10% range, counting the HUD housing the city built years ago. The infill rate is way below the loss rate in any case, when viewed over the life of the Historic District.

As to bad behavior in the community:  Drug dealers live pretty much all over Jacksonville and drug activity goes on in even gated high end communities.  A fact of life.  Perhaps it is more in your face in the urban areas, but that is not only Historic Springfield. As a Realtor, I also would hope you can ask yourself this question and answer yourself honestly.  Would those people you have sold more than one house to in Historic Springfield had looked at all if it were not a Historic District? Have you been reading about some of the things going on in Riverside/ Avondale?  Seems like the same kinds of issues are there as here in Springfield. You just have a higher entry cost. And yes, perhaps a little less in your face.

Saving a house because it is old is exactly the purpose of a Historic District.  If it wasn't, then there would be no district and only the "interesting" houses would be Landmarked.

Someone being considered a "slumlord" is, I guess, in the eyes of the beholder.  One that I know gets called that actually deserves it, though his properties are not nice today, they are much better than they were 15 years ago.  Another I know never was a "slumlord" though he gets called one.  One of his "rooming houses" has granite counter tops. Clean, reasonably well maintained, low cost rentals are needed here but many don't want "those kinds" here so the owners of such establishments get called names and whispered about behind those closed doors. Every real study I have seen in the last ten or so years has included the concept of "If you are good enough to work here, you are good enough to live here" when discussing the revitalization of an urban area.

Yes, we need the new in-fill.  But it should not ever be the most important thing going on here and the values per SF that brings the good infill should be arrived at in a natural and slower fashion so that it is sustainable and we don't get the overly inflated false values we got here 7 to 10 years ago. Thankfully, the builders here today either agree with that or have no choice but to be patient and can't do what SRG and others did back then.

Overall, there is no doubt that Historic Springfield was and in many ways, is still being neglected by the city and has a long way to go.  Destroying the very assets that make it unique just doesn't seem like a way forward.

« Last Edit: August 31, 2015, 08:30:52 AM by strider »
"My father says that almost the whole world is asleep. Everybody you know. Everybody you see. Everybody you talk to. He says that only a few people are awake and they live in a state of constant total amazement." Patrica, Joe VS the Volcano.

NaldoAveKnight

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Re: 1634 Ionia - owner requested demolition
« Reply #35 on: August 30, 2015, 07:30:51 PM »
I suspect that if you talked to a Springfield realtor and got a reasonable selling price for that single family and then worked backwards, one would easily see a profit from the rehab and eventual sale of this house.  Worst case is you might want to lease it out for a few years to see if the market continues to work it's way up.

The highest recent sale on Ionia street has been $104,000 for 1224 Ionia St.  If it costs $225,000 for the rehab the owner had just thrown away $120,000 plus the cost of the house.  That's absurd to think the owner would want to burn $120,000 to make some random do gooders happy.  Even if the rehab only costs $100,000 the owner has lost money once you include the cost of the house.  There is no scenario that makes economic sense to rehab the property.

Why doesn't Preservation SOS, the contractors, neighborhood groups, and do gooders that showed up to the meeting offer to rehab the house?  If they care so much for the property in question they should be willing to restore it to a livable state.

strider

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Re: 1634 Ionia - owner requested demolition
« Reply #36 on: August 31, 2015, 07:54:52 AM »
I suspect that if you talked to a Springfield realtor and got a reasonable selling price for that single family and then worked backwards, one would easily see a profit from the rehab and eventual sale of this house.  Worst case is you might want to lease it out for a few years to see if the market continues to work it's way up.

The highest recent sale on Ionia street has been $104,000 for 1224 Ionia St.  If it costs $225,000 for the rehab the owner had just thrown away $120,000 plus the cost of the house.  That's absurd to think the owner would want to burn $120,000 to make some random do gooders happy.  Even if the rehab only costs $100,000 the owner has lost money once you include the cost of the house.  There is no scenario that makes economic sense to rehab the property.

Why doesn't Preservation SOS, the contractors, neighborhood groups, and do gooders that showed up to the meeting offer to rehab the house?  If they care so much for the property in question they should be willing to restore it to a livable state.

To begin with, the $225,000 cost the owner put forward was to return the house to a triplex.  I also suspect it was at least somewhat inflated due to the fact that the owner has said he never wanted to rehab this house but rather bought it believing he could just tear it down.  I believe he could do OK with this house if he returned it to a smallish single family. 

Yes, Ionia has not been the most desirable street here in Historic Springfield.  You don't suppose that the fact that Ionia has lost 45% of it's Historic Housing stock has anything to do with that, do you?

It all has to do with the fact that it has been a neglected street and so of course it is less desirable and the values are harder to raise up.  But there are also some great bungalows and smaller houses on Ionia and that makes me and others believe that it will indeed be a desirable street to live on.

As far as the "do gooders" rehabbing the house.  All of the ones speaking out for the Historic District and for this house have done multiple houses already.  Including ones on Ionia.  Common sense says that it is not up to us to do all of them.  Look at it this way.  If the HPC tells a home owner that no, he can't put on that 10K roof, he must put on the 50K roof, should the "do gooders" wishing to preserve the historic fabric of his house pay the extra 40K?  The answer is no.  The owner accepted the responsibility of being in a Historic District with all that entails.  The same goes for the owner of 1634 Ionia Street.  If he can't afford to rehab this house, he needs to sell or donate it and pass it on to someone who can.  We "do gooders" have offered to help with that.

Once again:


The only real asset a Historic District has that has any lasting value are the houses themselves.
« Last Edit: August 31, 2015, 08:48:59 AM by strider »
"My father says that almost the whole world is asleep. Everybody you know. Everybody you see. Everybody you talk to. He says that only a few people are awake and they live in a state of constant total amazement." Patrica, Joe VS the Volcano.

NaldoAveKnight

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Re: 1634 Ionia - owner requested demolition
« Reply #37 on: August 31, 2015, 11:53:30 AM »
There's no denying that the value of a historic district is in it's historic houses.  That's like saying 1 + 1 = 2.  Ok, that's a fact, however, it's not relevant to stealing someone's property.  The landowner has rights and the neighborhood commission that voted to keep him from demolishing his property has egregiously interfered with his rights.  Given that pretty much everyone that showed up to that meeting had their hand out it's pretty obvious there's a level of corruption at work.

Hiding behind a veil of 'the only value a historic district has is in it's housing stock' while trying to get a free house is disingenuous.
« Last Edit: August 31, 2015, 12:23:10 PM by NaldoAveKnight »

CCMjax

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Re: 1634 Ionia - owner requested demolition
« Reply #38 on: August 31, 2015, 12:31:05 PM »
There's no denying that the value of a historic district is in it's historic houses.  However, that's like saying 1 + 1 = 2.  Ok, that's a fact, however, it's not relevant to stealing someone's property.  The landowner has rights and the neighborhood commission that voted to keep him from demolishing his property has egregiously interfered with his rights.  Given that pretty much everyone that showed up to that meeting had their hand out it's pretty obvious there's a level of corruption at work.

Hiding behind a veil of 'the only value a historic district has is in it's housing stock' while trying to get a free house is disingenuous.

I think they are just trying to save another home from being lost.  The argument is that the only thing that truly needs to be demolished is the damaged back side addition.  The rest looks as if it could be restored by someone who is willing.  The property owner should have been aware that it would be difficult to tear down an historic home in a district like this.  If he truly bought it just to tear it down because of the back side that is dangerous in his mind then he could partner with someone and pay for the demolition of the addition while the partner restores the rest of it.  If it was that tremendous of an issue for him, why did he buy and build on the adjacent property?  If he got that one for $7,000 what are the adjacent ones worth?  Are they even occupied?  He's a developer, maybe he could buy all three and restore them simultaneously.  That would certainly freshen up that block a bit and add value to his current home around the corner.   

Property rights are a gray area, should the owner really have the right to do whatever he/she pleases with a property, particularly one in an historic district?  What if some big shot came along and bought the Laura Street Trio and then announced he wanted to demolish it and use it for a surface parking lot?  Is that really in the best interest of the city or community?  Shouldn't the community be able to block that from happening?
"The first man who, having enclosed a piece of ground, bethought himself of saying 'This is mine,' and found people simple enough to believe him, was the real founder of civil society." - Jean Jacques Rousseau

strider

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Re: 1634 Ionia - owner requested demolition
« Reply #39 on: August 31, 2015, 01:14:33 PM »
There's no denying that the value of a historic district is in it's historic houses.  That's like saying 1 + 1 = 2.  Ok, that's a fact, however, it's not relevant to stealing someone's property.  The landowner has rights and the neighborhood commission that voted to keep him from demolishing his property has egregiously interfered with his rights.  Given that pretty much everyone that showed up to that meeting had their hand out it's pretty obvious there's a level of corruption at work.

Hiding behind a veil of 'the only value a historic district has is in it's housing stock' while trying to get a free house is disingenuous.

To begin with, the entire reason a Historic District exists is to protect the houses.  Even if sometimes it is from the owners themselves.  Once you agree to buy a structure in a Historic District you are in a defacto contract with the governing body that you will abide by the rules under which the Historic District exists.  This is why you must get a Certificate of Appropriateness to work on your house.  You must get permission and approval for the work you wish to do.  You know this before you buy or you failed to do your homework. You can't just put in any window you want, you must get approval for the windows.  You can't just put a new front door on, you must get it approved. While it certainly has "removed" some of your property rights, you agreed to do so when you bought the house.  You also have agreed that you can be fined and otherwise penalized if you fail to follow the rules.

All of this makes your statement: "The landowner has rights and the neighborhood commission that voted to keep him from demolishing his property has egregiously interfered with his rights." nothing but nonsense.  The owner gave those rights to the HPC when he knowingly bought into the Historic District.  How do I know he knowingly gave up those rights?  He had to get a COA to build his new house and he applied for a COA to demolish this one. Establishes that he knew the laws governing this.  He just doesn't like them.

Then we have this:  "Hiding behind a veil of 'the only value a historic district has is in it's housing stock' while trying to get a free house is disingenuous."  Utter nonsense and those that know us and can actually read and think for themselves know that the truth is actually very different.

"My father says that almost the whole world is asleep. Everybody you know. Everybody you see. Everybody you talk to. He says that only a few people are awake and they live in a state of constant total amazement." Patrica, Joe VS the Volcano.

NaldoAveKnight

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Re: 1634 Ionia - owner requested demolition
« Reply #40 on: August 31, 2015, 02:22:33 PM »
I think they are just trying to save another home from being lost.  The argument is that the only thing that truly needs to be demolished is the damaged back side addition.  The rest looks as if it could be restored by someone who is willing.  The property owner should have been aware that it would be difficult to tear down an historic home in a district like this.  If he truly bought it just to tear it down because of the back side that is dangerous in his mind then he could partner with someone and pay for the demolition of the addition while the partner restores the rest of it.  If it was that tremendous of an issue for him, why did he buy and build on the adjacent property?  If he got that one for $7,000 what are the adjacent ones worth?  Are they even occupied?  He's a developer, maybe he could buy all three and restore them simultaneously.  That would certainly freshen up that block a bit and add value to his current home around the corner.   

The other two houses are owned by folks that purchased the homes for back taxes.  1630 Ionia has no building value according to the city.  1638 Ionia has a building value of $1,083.  Obviously this is a forsaken area.

The owner can't make changes to the house like you suggest.  Removing the back half of the house would entail months/years of approvals from neighborhood groups that are resistant to change and/or want their palms greased.  He would have to spend the full $225,000.  To suggest otherwise is an assumption that can't be made at this point, especially with the neighborhood groups that hold sway in Springfield.

Pages 75 of the "Historic Preservation Guidelines for the Springfield Historic District" has ten conditions that must be met for a demolition.  All ten of those conditions have been met in the case of 1634 Ionia.  To deny the demolition while offering to take title of the house at the same meeting is corruption.

http://www.coj.net/departments/planning-and-development/docs/historic/historic-preservation-guidelines-for-springfield.aspx

Bill Hoff

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Re: 1634 Ionia - owner requested demolition
« Reply #41 on: August 31, 2015, 02:35:14 PM »
I think they are just trying to save another home from being lost.  The argument is that the only thing that truly needs to be demolished is the damaged back side addition.  The rest looks as if it could be restored by someone who is willing.  The property owner should have been aware that it would be difficult to tear down an historic home in a district like this.  If he truly bought it just to tear it down because of the back side that is dangerous in his mind then he could partner with someone and pay for the demolition of the addition while the partner restores the rest of it.  If it was that tremendous of an issue for him, why did he buy and build on the adjacent property?  If he got that one for $7,000 what are the adjacent ones worth?  Are they even occupied?  He's a developer, maybe he could buy all three and restore them simultaneously.  That would certainly freshen up that block a bit and add value to his current home around the corner.   

The other two houses are owned by folks that purchased the homes for back taxes.  1630 Ionia has no building value according to the city.  1638 Ionia has a building value of $1,083.  Obviously this is a forsaken area.


There's a couple nice homes on the block, a gigantic quad across the street that's being renovated, and a long vacant house next door being (slowly) renovated. Also, the owner is going before HPC next month to propose 2 additional new construction homes across the street.

"Things are a changing", as someone once said.

mbwright

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Re: 1634 Ionia - owner requested demolition
« Reply #42 on: August 31, 2015, 04:50:57 PM »
Demo should be the absolute last and EXTREME course for a house in a HISTORIC DISTRICT.  If you don't want restricts in a HISTORIC DISTRICT, don't move there.  Jax has made if far too easy for demos to occur.  This is wrong.  Since the back of the house was an early addition, it too should be restored, but I think if the front half was done, maybe a variance could be done for the back.  The house should be preserved, there are folks willing to do it.

Trying to do something differently is a bit like moving into a neighborhood with an HOA that demands approval for paint, flowers, and complains if your garage is open more than 15 minutes.  If you don't like the conditions, don't move there.  You certainly can't put in a shed or carport if you live in Queen's Harbor or Marsh Landing without jumping through hoops. 

strider

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Re: 1634 Ionia - owner requested demolition
« Reply #43 on: August 31, 2015, 05:09:06 PM »
Doesn't Naldo have a point though?

Haven't you always said on here that people really only work according to self interest?  You know, they just pretend to be doing things for the public good, but really there is a financial or political interest in doing them,

I seem to remember that was a long running theme of yours prior to the election, strider.

In fact you spent a good amount of effort trying to prove that in order to delegitimize public policy points by other people.

But here you are saying this doesn't possibly include yourself or your friends.

Yawn

"My father says that almost the whole world is asleep. Everybody you know. Everybody you see. Everybody you talk to. He says that only a few people are awake and they live in a state of constant total amazement." Patrica, Joe VS the Volcano.

strider

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Re: 1634 Ionia - owner requested demolition
« Reply #44 on: August 31, 2015, 05:26:23 PM »
I think they are just trying to save another home from being lost.  The argument is that the only thing that truly needs to be demolished is the damaged back side addition.  The rest looks as if it could be restored by someone who is willing.  The property owner should have been aware that it would be difficult to tear down an historic home in a district like this.  If he truly bought it just to tear it down because of the back side that is dangerous in his mind then he could partner with someone and pay for the demolition of the addition while the partner restores the rest of it.  If it was that tremendous of an issue for him, why did he buy and build on the adjacent property?  If he got that one for $7,000 what are the adjacent ones worth?  Are they even occupied?  He's a developer, maybe he could buy all three and restore them simultaneously.  That would certainly freshen up that block a bit and add value to his current home around the corner.   

The other two houses are owned by folks that purchased the homes for back taxes.  1630 Ionia has no building value according to the city.  1638 Ionia has a building value of $1,083.  Obviously this is a forsaken area.


There's a couple nice homes on the block, a gigantic quad across the street that's being renovated, and a long vacant house next door being (slowly) renovated. Also, the owner is going before HPC next month to propose 2 additional new construction homes across the street.

"Things are a changing", as someone once said.

Some of those are on 7th and as far as has been said to date, no plans for infill in place of the Ionia street house. 

However, to correct the info provided by Naldoaveknight:  1630 has no value because it is not there.  It is the empty lot that resulted from the demolition of the house that actually caused the damage to 1634.  The house at 1630  - I wish we had good pictures - was truly badly burned and did need to come down.  The house to the south is 1626 and while the owners did the carriage house first, they are now working on the main house.  It will be a cool place when done. The house at 1638 was saved from the wrecking ball and is slowly being rehabbed.  The state of the houses on Ionia is also the result of the MCCD policies that contaminate and make rehabbing a house difficult.  And yet, they are indeed being done.  Just like the one at 1634 can and should be done. Oh, and the removal of the addition on 1634 at this point would be easier than the removal of the entire house.
"My father says that almost the whole world is asleep. Everybody you know. Everybody you see. Everybody you talk to. He says that only a few people are awake and they live in a state of constant total amazement." Patrica, Joe VS the Volcano.