Author Topic: Life Prison Sentences v/s Capital Punishment  (Read 32529 times)

Ajax

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Re: Life Prison Sentences v/s Capital Punishment
« Reply #30 on: August 10, 2015, 01:48:50 PM »
I am split on the issue. When I am thinking about this in general (i.e. not tied to any particular case), I am against the death penalty but I must admit there are cases where in that particular case I would not be against it, but that is my emotional side speaking.

My issue with the death penalty are:
- to me it seems to be more about revenge than anything else. While this is understandable on a personal level, especially for those affected by the crime (and I would be no different), the justice system should be as free from vengeful emotion as possible.
- the death penalty is final, so in case an innocent person has been executed there is no way to make this right - and there have been (far too) many cases where innocent people were sentenced to death based on sloppy investigating, ulterior motives, giving wrong testimony, hiding / manipulation of evidence, people not doing their job properly...
- In many cases a death sentence is actually a double-punishment since convicts can sit in jail for 10+ years before the sentence is carried out.

So, from the above, if society feels that the death penalty should be allowed, then
- it needs to be ensured that all defendants have a proper legal representation
- there need to be certain requirements on proof (i.e. the smoking gun)
- it should be swift (no combination of a long prison term and an execution)
- it should also mean that anyone contributing to an innocent person being executed (i.e. because they were hiding, manipulating or ignoring exonerating evidence) should automatically receive the same sentence

Gunnar, I think your thoughts most closely resemble my own, with a few differences:

I agree that the state should not be a part of a victim's or victim's family revenge.  While I can completely understand the desire to kill someone who has harmed a loved one, I still don't think the state should be a part of that revenge. 

You correctly noted that many innocent people have been executed.  Once that sentence is carried out, it can't be undone.  In Jacksonville people have had many concerns with Angela Corey and her performance and tactics.  However, she's an angel compared to some prosecutors who have falsified evidence and who have hidden evidence that would have exonerated defendants.  Some of these people were only concerned with their own "win-loss record" and weren't interested in true justice.  So they willingly participated in the execution of an innocent person while they left the true murderer out in the general population. 

It's also pretty obvious that there's a justice system for rich people, and a different system for poor people.  I can't remember who first said "if you're rich and guilty you get treated better than someone who is poor and innocent."  (I just did a quick google search and Bryan Stevenson said it in a TED talk but I'm not sure if that was original or if he was paraphrasing someone else: https://www.ted.com/talks/bryan_stevenson_we_need_to_talk_about_an_injustice/transcript?language=en).

To that point I agree with your assertion that all defendants should receive proper legal representation, but I'm not sure if that's realistic.  (In which case, I think you and I might agree that abolishing the death penalty is reasonable). 

I'm not convinced that the "smoking gun" requirement would work because there are still immoral prosecutors who can manipulate evidence. 

As for the requirement that the execution should be swift, wouldn't that deprive the defendant of a fair and robust appeal process?  I guess (assuming I'm a truly innocent defendant) I would rather deal with the mental anguish of spending 10 years on death row and eventually getting exonerated, than having a speedy execution that can't be undone. 

I agree that people who are involved with wrongful convictions should be punished, but that is rare and I don't ever see that changing. 



AKIRA

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Re: Life Prison Sentences v/s Capital Punishment
« Reply #31 on: August 10, 2015, 02:28:14 PM »
Since this has been brought up, what exactly are the moral problems with revenge, if it is justified within the legal system, for the victim;s family?

AKIRA

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Re: Life Prison Sentences v/s Capital Punishment
« Reply #32 on: August 10, 2015, 04:09:50 PM »
In what way?  If it is with justifible CP, then it clearly does with the execuction.


Adam White

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Re: Life Prison Sentences v/s Capital Punishment
« Reply #33 on: August 10, 2015, 04:25:52 PM »
Since this has been brought up, what exactly are the moral problems with revenge, if it is justified within the legal system, for the victim;s family?

I am not a fan of that sort of thinking - it's akin to the code of hammurabi or whatever and isn't compatible with a supposedly 'enlightened' society. Regardless, I'm opposed to killing.

Also - the criminal justice system doesn't function to serve the individual (or the victim's family). It should function to serve society.
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The_Choose_1

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Re: Life Prison Sentences v/s Capital Punishment
« Reply #34 on: August 10, 2015, 04:36:20 PM »
Since this has been brought up, what exactly are the moral problems with revenge, if it is justified within the legal system, for the victim;s family?

I am not a fan of that sort of thinking - it's akin to the code of hammurabi or whatever and isn't compatible with a supposedly 'enlightened' society. Regardless, I'm opposed to killing.

Also - the criminal justice system doesn't function to serve the individual (or the victim's family). It should function to serve society.
(the criminal justice system doesn't function to serve the individual (or the victim's family). It should function to serve society.) Great Quote Adam White!
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Non-RedNeck Westsider

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Re: Life Prison Sentences v/s Capital Punishment
« Reply #35 on: August 10, 2015, 04:39:35 PM »

I am not a fan of that sort of thinking - it's akin to the code of hammurabi or whatever and isn't compatible with a supposedly 'enlightened' society. Regardless, I'm opposed to killing.

Also - the criminal justice system doesn't function to serve the individual (or the victim's family). It should function to serve society.

Using that logic, then how does locking someone away for the rest of their natural life serve society?  Try and put aside your moral conviction regarding capital punishment and think about what you're saying. 

The gist I get is:  This person isn't fit to live among you, but since we're opposed to 'stooping to his level' we're just going to allow him to be a burden until he passes away on his own.

Now you have a human being, locked up, with no incentive to live other than a desire to be not dead?  You wanna talk about cruel and inhumane....   End it.  Quickly and justly if so deserved. 
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The_Choose_1

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Re: Life Prison Sentences v/s Capital Punishment
« Reply #36 on: August 10, 2015, 04:40:37 PM »
WOW! So since this man in Colorado didn't get "Capital Punishment" it's OK for him to be Murdered in Prison?

Your comprehension could use a little tweaking.

I'm going to type this slowly to help you understand it a bit clearer:

Putting a murderer in prison won't prevent him/her from murdering again whereas executing said murderer would.
You think your cute talking down to me Redneck Westsider don't you Oops sorry I forgot Non. Putting anyone in prison doesn't prevent anyone from killing. Look Capital Punishment doesn't work in America........................................................ Case Closed NEXT!
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Adam White

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Re: Life Prison Sentences v/s Capital Punishment
« Reply #37 on: August 10, 2015, 04:45:24 PM »

I am not a fan of that sort of thinking - it's akin to the code of hammurabi or whatever and isn't compatible with a supposedly 'enlightened' society. Regardless, I'm opposed to killing.

Also - the criminal justice system doesn't function to serve the individual (or the victim's family). It should function to serve society.

Using that logic, then how does locking someone away for the rest of their natural life serve society?  Try and put aside your moral conviction regarding capital punishment and think about what you're saying. 

The gist I get is:  This person isn't fit to live among you, but since we're opposed to 'stooping to his level' we're just going to allow him to be a burden until he passes away on his own.

Now you have a human being, locked up, with no incentive to live other than a desire to be not dead?  You wanna talk about cruel and inhumane....   End it.  Quickly and justly if so deserved.

I don't think I can separate my problem with killing from the question. And I also have concerns about killing people who may be innocent. Better to let a million guilty people live than to execute one innocent person. But beyond that - I don't see the relatively minor cost of keeping one person incarcerated as being that big a burden on a society that wastes 100s of billions of dollars (if not more) on so-called "defense spending" and stupid things like the "war on drugs" (for the record, I don't really care that much about drug legalization - it's not a pet issue for me).

And as I said before, I am not opposed to the occasional life sentence, assuming there is a possibility for a review of the prisoner's sentence/incarceration in the future. I am opposed to the notion of locking someone up forever and never being willing to consider changes in circumstances, etc. And the ECHR agrees with me on that. (Well, I agree with them - I'm pretty sure they have no idea who I am).
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The_Choose_1

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Re: Life Prison Sentences v/s Capital Punishment
« Reply #38 on: August 10, 2015, 04:46:39 PM »
Quote
Can you ask a juror if they would have a personal/religious objection to sentencing someone to death?  Because in this case, and I'm sure many like it, just one juror makes a helluva lot of difference.

I am not a lawyer, but I believe that it is not only allowed, but is standard procedure. A prosecutor seeking a Death Penalty conviction will usually not agree to seat someone that is opposed to the Death Penalty.  Also, they would have already investigated the potential juror enough to have an idea of their response beforehand.

Of course, the juror can SAY one thing in the courtroom, and DO something different in the jury room.

I don't have a problem with the Death Penalty as far as it being the penalty For me to vote for it as a juror, I would have to have no doubt of their guilt, and it would have to be significantly heinous.

One thing to consider is that just because someone is in prison, doesn't mean they can't still kill someone.   
WOW! So since this man in Colorado didn't get "Capital Punishment" it's OK for him to be Murdered in Prison?

No, you completely misunderstood.

My point was that by putting someone in prison, they can still kill someone. They could kill a Corrections Officer, a fellow inmate or order a hit from the inside for someone on the outside.  Many that argue against the Death Penalty use the argument that society is 'safe' because the killer is in prison. But that is not completely true.  Obviously if someone was executed, they are NOT going to kill anyone else, ever. That was my point.
OK I misunderstood what you said and thanks for not being a Jerk like Non Redneck Westsider was towards me. But when the trial is over whats the point of arguing about Capital Punishment?  If you want to change the laws that are on the books good luck. Most of the people on here making comments will most likely be dead before any real change comes to Life Prison Sentences v/s Capital Punishment.
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The_Choose_1

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Re: Life Prison Sentences v/s Capital Punishment
« Reply #39 on: August 10, 2015, 04:50:24 PM »

I am not a fan of that sort of thinking - it's akin to the code of hammurabi or whatever and isn't compatible with a supposedly 'enlightened' society. Regardless, I'm opposed to killing.

Also - the criminal justice system doesn't function to serve the individual (or the victim's family). It should function to serve society.

Using that logic, then how does locking someone away for the rest of their natural life serve society?  Try and put aside your moral conviction regarding capital punishment and think about what you're saying. 

The gist I get is:  This person isn't fit to live among you, but since we're opposed to 'stooping to his level' we're just going to allow him to be a burden until he passes away on his own.

Now you have a human being, locked up, with no incentive to live other than a desire to be not dead?  You wanna talk about cruel and inhumane....   End it.  Quickly and justly if so deserved.
You have a God like attitude towards people you don't agree with. Do you think all your double speak is going to change anyone's mind on this subject N.R.N.W.
« Last Edit: August 10, 2015, 05:02:13 PM by The_Choose_1 »
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Non-RedNeck Westsider

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Re: Life Prison Sentences v/s Capital Punishment
« Reply #40 on: August 10, 2015, 05:09:27 PM »

I don't think I can separate my problem with killing from the question. And I also have concerns about killing people who may be innocent. Better to let a million guilty people live than to execute one innocent person. But beyond that - I don't see the relatively minor cost of keeping one person incarcerated as being that big a burden on a society that wastes 100s of billions of dollars (if not more) on so-called "defense spending" and stupid things like the "war on drugs" (for the record, I don't really care that much about drug legalization - it's not a pet issue for me).

And as I said before, I am not opposed to the occasional life sentence, assuming there is a possibility for a review of the prisoner's sentence/incarceration in the future. I am opposed to the notion of locking someone up forever and never being willing to consider changes in circumstances, etc. And the ECHR agrees with me on that. (Well, I agree with them - I'm pretty sure they have no idea who I am).

Most of the statistics I've found regarding the subject agree with your train of thought as well.  It's not surprising really.  I can understand why many people would be against such a harsh punishment. 

As I said to kick this whole thing off, there are crimes of intent and circumstance.  For some crimes, I believe that we can't go far enough with the punishment and for many, many others I think we go too far.  It's not a perfect system, but it's the one we've got, and even though I agree with you 1,000% on this, "Better to let a million guilty people live than to execute one innocent person.", we'll just have to agree to disagree over the death sentence in general.

Good discussion.

If you want some more info on kind of an obscure subject:   http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/


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Adam White

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Re: Life Prison Sentences v/s Capital Punishment
« Reply #41 on: August 10, 2015, 05:20:25 PM »

I don't think I can separate my problem with killing from the question. And I also have concerns about killing people who may be innocent. Better to let a million guilty people live than to execute one innocent person. But beyond that - I don't see the relatively minor cost of keeping one person incarcerated as being that big a burden on a society that wastes 100s of billions of dollars (if not more) on so-called "defense spending" and stupid things like the "war on drugs" (for the record, I don't really care that much about drug legalization - it's not a pet issue for me).

And as I said before, I am not opposed to the occasional life sentence, assuming there is a possibility for a review of the prisoner's sentence/incarceration in the future. I am opposed to the notion of locking someone up forever and never being willing to consider changes in circumstances, etc. And the ECHR agrees with me on that. (Well, I agree with them - I'm pretty sure they have no idea who I am).

Most of the statistics I've found regarding the subject agree with your train of thought as well.  It's not surprising really.  I can understand why many people would be against such a harsh punishment. 

As I said to kick this whole thing off, there are crimes of intent and circumstance.  For some crimes, I believe that we can't go far enough with the punishment and for many, many others I think we go too far.  It's not a perfect system, but it's the one we've got, and even though I agree with you 1,000% on this, "Better to let a million guilty people live than to execute one innocent person.", we'll just have to agree to disagree over the death sentence in general.

Good discussion.

If you want some more info on kind of an obscure subject:   http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/

It is an interesting thing to debate - and there are so many things to consider. I'll check out that link.
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Gunnar

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Re: Life Prison Sentences v/s Capital Punishment
« Reply #42 on: August 11, 2015, 06:42:53 AM »
Gunnar, I think your thoughts most closely resemble my own, with a few differences:

As for the requirement that the execution should be swift, wouldn't that deprive the defendant of a fair and robust appeal process?  I guess (assuming I'm a truly innocent defendant) I would rather deal with the mental anguish of spending 10 years on death row and eventually getting exonerated, than having a speedy execution that can't be undone. 

I agree that people who are involved with wrongful convictions should be punished, but that is rare and I don't ever see that changing.

You make a good point - that is a difficult one. Assuming (in an ideal world) that the defendant had a proper process with irrefutable evidence presented, plus given the chance for an appeal (which would have to be prioritized for death sentence cases, i.e. need to happen as quickly as possible without long waiting periods this may work.

However, as a world is never ideal, I am not sure if it would even be possible to guarantee the defendant a fair and robust process and avoid double punishment (long prison term followed by an execution).

Me, personally, I would also like for the prison term to be used to better convicts rather than just serve as a sort of purgatory, but the question is what to do with people that are so inherently evil / broken that this will not work.

Definitely not an easy topic.
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The_Choose_1

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Re: Life Prison Sentences v/s Capital Punishment
« Reply #43 on: August 11, 2015, 08:06:35 AM »
Gunnar, I think your thoughts most closely resemble my own, with a few differences:

As for the requirement that the execution should be swift, wouldn't that deprive the defendant of a fair and robust appeal process?  I guess (assuming I'm a truly innocent defendant) I would rather deal with the mental anguish of spending 10 years on death row and eventually getting exonerated, than having a speedy execution that can't be undone. 

I agree that people who are involved with wrongful convictions should be punished, but that is rare and I don't ever see that changing.

You make a good point - that is a difficult one. Assuming (in an ideal world) that the defendant had a proper process with irrefutable evidence presented, plus given the chance for an appeal (which would have to be prioritized for death sentence cases, i.e. need to happen as quickly as possible without long waiting periods this may work.

However, as a world is never ideal, I am not sure if it would even be possible to guarantee the defendant a fair and robust process and avoid double punishment (long prison term followed by an execution).

Me, personally, I would also like for the prison term to be used to better convicts rather than just serve as a sort of purgatory, but the question is what to do with people that are so inherently evil / broken that this will not work.

Definitely not an easy topic.
(but the question is what to do with people that are so inherently evil / broken that this will not work.) Have you seen the movie "Minority Report" when a person accused of a future crime that hasn't happen is then "placed into a coma-like stasis inside the PreCrime facility." Maybe we should do this to all prisoners we wouldn't have to build huge prisons and have all those guards in which a lot of them are as bad as the prisoners themselves.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minority_Report_%28film%29
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The_Choose_1

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