JTA town meetings set to discuss new BRT North Corridor

[thelakelander]

I didn't realize that the north leg of JTA's BRT system would be operational this year.  I guess, I haven't driven up to Gateway Mall or the Lem Turner Walmart in a while:

The Jacksonville Transportation Authority is having public meetings and hearings to discuss improvements to service and seek input on proposed bus system changes.
The meetings will offer information on the launch of the First Coast Flyer Bus Rapid Transit system in December, while proposed changes include the elimination of Route 2, changes to Route 12 and a reduction in service for Routes 203 and 301.

The premium First Coast Flyer service will feature low-floor buses with easy-to-understand routes, real time bus arrival information, fewer stops and 10-minute peak and 15-minute off-peak frequency. The 9.4-mile North Corridor will begin service Dec. 7 with 18 stations, a new park-and-ride lot and eight energy-efficient compressed natural gas buses. The $33.2 million project is funded by the Florida Department of Transportation, JTA and other sources.

Full article: http://jacksonville.com/news/metro/2015-07-20/story/jta-town-meetings-set-discuss-new-routes-and-changes

[Steve]

That to me is the leg of BRT that makes the most sense. It's a dense corridor with decent ridership now, followed by the East. The SW one is growing on me, as they are using Blanding not Roosevelt. I'd still like to see some sort of commuter rail down Roosevelt

The SE make the least sense to me as it parallels rail ROW.

[CCMjax]

Would the SE route make more sense if it ran up and down San Jose?  Just seems like denser development with more people living close to that line.  Phillips has a lot of commercial and industry on it but not a lot of residential.

[thelakelander]

The problem I see with Philips is nothing of significance really touches it and this type of bus line won't attract real TOD. So forget about it being a tool to change the built environment surrounding it.

As currently planned, it gets close to Southpoint but does not directly hit any of the major office complexes or hotels. It gets close to Deerwood Center but does not hit anything in it, like FCSL or Convergys directly. It gets near Freedom Commerce Center but does not hit it dab smack in the middle. Basically, if you're headed to Avenues Mall, Lowes or a strip club near one of the major intersections, you'll be fine.  Anything else and you'll be walking a good distance from the nearest stop in our humid climate.  That's a major problem with trying to provide high frequency transit in areas of low density. Not the best for attracting choice riders. However, that may not be a major goal with this particular route. 

If I recall, years ago there was a political push to improve transit service between the Northside and the growing Southside.  This is what came to be.  Unfortunately, the Southside isn't growing along Philips, like we may have anticipated back in the 1990s when the Avenues was new.  It's growing along JTB, I-295 East Beltway and SR 9B.

[IrvAdams]

The problem I see with Philips is nothing of significance really touches it and this type of bus line won't attract real TOD. So forget about it being a tool to change the built environment surrounding it.

As currently planned, it gets close to Southpoint but does not directly hit any of the major office complexes or hotels. It gets close to Deerwood Center but does not hit anything in it, like FCSL or Convergys directly. It gets near Freedom Commerce Center but does not hit it dab smack in the middle. Basically, if you're headed to Avenues Mall, Lowes or a strip club near one of the major intersections, you'll be fine.  Anything else and you'll be walking a good distance from the nearest stop in our humid climate.  That's a major problem with trying to provide high frequency transit in areas of low density. Not the best for attracting choice riders. However, that may not be a major goal with this particular route. 

If I recall, years ago there was a political push to improve transit service between the Northside and the growing Southside.  This is what came to be.  Unfortunately, the Southside isn't growing along Philips, like we may have anticipated back in the 1990s when the Avenues was new.  It's growing along JTB, I-295 East Beltway and SR 9B.

That's a good and fairly aggressive schedule, glad to see it opening first where it's needed most. Lake, the area of Philips that is growing fastest seems to be the southernmost region near I295, if they an feed this area then they can tap into a lot of workers and residential. For example, Shad road goes all the way through to San Jose, so a feeder bus could produce another group of potential riders.

[Steve]

Would the SE route make more sense if it ran up and down San Jose?  Just seems like denser development with more people living close to that line.  Phillips has a lot of commercial and industry on it but not a lot of residential.

I'd agree for BRT; plus you also have a lot of places (especially north of Baymeadows) where you can fit in a dedicated bus lane.

[thelakelander]

The problem I see with Philips is nothing of significance really touches it and this type of bus line won't attract real TOD. So forget about it being a tool to change the built environment surrounding it.

As currently planned, it gets close to Southpoint but does not directly hit any of the major office complexes or hotels. It gets close to Deerwood Center but does not hit anything in it, like FCSL or Convergys directly. It gets near Freedom Commerce Center but does not hit it dab smack in the middle. Basically, if you're headed to Avenues Mall, Lowes or a strip club near one of the major intersections, you'll be fine.  Anything else and you'll be walking a good distance from the nearest stop in our humid climate.  That's a major problem with trying to provide high frequency transit in areas of low density. Not the best for attracting choice riders. However, that may not be a major goal with this particular route. 

If I recall, years ago there was a political push to improve transit service between the Northside and the growing Southside.  This is what came to be.  Unfortunately, the Southside isn't growing along Philips, like we may have anticipated back in the 1990s when the Avenues was new.  It's growing along JTB, I-295 East Beltway and SR 9B.

That's a good and fairly aggressive schedule, glad to see it opening first where it's needed most. Lake, the area of Philips that is growing fastest seems to be the southernmost region near I295, if they an feed this area then they can tap into a lot of workers and residential. For example, Shad road goes all the way through to San Jose, so a feeder bus could produce another group of potential riders.

The Philips route ends at Avenues Mall. People moving to the hot spots like Bartram Park, Flagler Center, East Baymeadows, Town Center, etc. will most likely still drive. My kids go to school in Mandarin off Shad.  It's mostly industrial to get a mile or so west of the FEC tracks. After that, it's low density single family housing. Shad and Sunbeam are two streets you try to avoid, due to the at-grade railroad crossing south of Bowden Yard. You can't rely on transit in that area, if you want to consistently be on time somewhere. When I head that way, I cross over on Baymeadows or University.

Philips will be fine for those in other areas of town who may need access to the mall. However, without hitting destinations directly, it won't attract a decent amount of choice riders the way some of the more successful BRT lines across the country do. Philips is the type of corridor if you want to retrofit it (which was a major goal of the Southeast Visioning Plan), you have to put in infrastructure and land use modifications that allow that to happen.

[thelakelander]

I'll admit, the SE corridor is a tough area to serve. Although it's in Jacksonville (due to consolidation with Duval County), it's really a collection of sprawling suburbs on old goat's paths and turpentine trails, where the highest concentration of density and employment is along JTB and Southside Blvd.

[thelakelander]

Here's a pretty cool dot map from http://www.robertmanduca.com/projects/jobs.html

It shows employment density based off 2010 census data. One Dot = One Job.  It illustrates some of the major concentrations of people served and missed.  I'm working in Central Florida today, but when I get back to Jax, I'll try to remember to overlay the BRT corridors on top of the map.

Manufacturing and Trade (red) - Professional Services (blue) - Healthcare, Education, and Government (green) - Retail, Hospitality, and Other Services (orange)

[CCMjax]

I'll admit, the SE corridor is a tough area to serve. Although it's in Jacksonville (due to consolidation with Duval County), it's really a collection of sprawling suburbs on old goat's paths and turpentine trails, where the highest concentration of density and employment is along JTB and Southside Blvd.

Unfortunately, even with all the corporate/commercial and multi-family residential development along JTB, it is still all so spread out that public transit can't really serve it very efficiently.  Where do you stop?  Which side of Butler?  Do you zig-zag back and forth, lol?  A commuter rail wouldn't serve that area very well either.  It's unfortunate, such a huge concentration of people, but no real efficient way to get them around other than car.  Short sighted, tunnel vision planning and development at it's finest!

[thelakelander]

In short, if I had to run something between DT and the Southside, I'd probably abandon anything south of JTB initially and take on the JTB corridor. Yeah, you'd miss Avenues Mall but I'd give it up to directly serve Southpoint, St. Lukes, Deerwood Park, SJTC, UNF, etc. At some point in the future, you could then extend to the beach, picking up Mayo in the process.

[Steve]

^Makes sense. If you can't serve an area well, then why waste money on it?