Author Topic: man attacks Dallas Police dept. with armoured van  (Read 4253 times)

AKIRA

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man attacks Dallas Police dept. with armoured van
« on: June 13, 2015, 06:40:02 PM »
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/06/13/james-boulware-dallas-shooting-suspect_n_7575796.htm

In a country where an armoured vehicle is only one bid away on Ebay, what choice do police departments have in maintaining equipement that is, in some eyes, 'militaritized"?

Adam White

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Re: man attacks Dallas Police dept. with armoured van
« Reply #1 on: June 14, 2015, 03:03:49 AM »
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/06/13/james-boulware-dallas-shooting-suspect_n_7575796.htm

In a country where an armoured vehicle is only one bid away on Ebay, what choice do police departments have in maintaining equipement that is, in some eyes, 'militaritized"?

There's a national guard that can deal with the extremely rare instances where a person buys an armoured vehicle and uses it in the commission of a crime. Assuming they would need to - that guy who stole a tank and went on a rampage in the 90s was shot and killed by police. They just opened the hatch and shot him when his tank got stuck - they didn't use a bazooka or whatever to stop him.

Second option - don't allow the sale of armoured vehicles on eBay.
« Last Edit: June 14, 2015, 04:11:22 AM by Adam White »
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coredumped

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Re: man attacks Dallas Police dept. with armoured van
« Reply #2 on: June 14, 2015, 10:01:12 AM »
Oh Lord, are we saying that we should ban the sales of vans now? What this person did was a crime, banning armored vans won't stop it.
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Adam White

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Re: man attacks Dallas Police dept. with armoured van
« Reply #3 on: June 14, 2015, 10:09:01 AM »
Oh Lord, are we saying that we should ban the sales of vans now? What this person did was a crime, banning armored vans won't stop it.

No, I'm not saying that. I'm simply saying that it's a possible option. I would argue that banning the sales of armoured vehicles would reduce the likelihood of crimes like this happening in the future - though it wouldn't eliminate it 100%. But it's not like crimes like this happen very often anyway.

The point is, a one-time crazy crime like this is certainly not a good reason for police departments to be "militarized".
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AKIRA

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Re: man attacks Dallas Police dept. with armoured van
« Reply #4 on: June 14, 2015, 06:35:15 PM »
Throughout the history of law enforcement, there are watershed moments in which equipment and tactics changes.  Being that policing is mostly reactive, many changes occur when things go horribly wrong for the police.

A bell tower in Texas changed the understanding of what one motivated, trained and mentally ill man can do.

Bank robbers in Miami (1980’s)out gunned the FBI agents which brought on the change from LEOs carrying revolvers to carrying semi-auto handguns.

Robbers in California (1990’s) outfitted with long guns and body armour ushered in the provisions for police to carry rifles.

The school shootings/mass shootings radically altered the tactics used in those circumstance with regard of time spent immobile is life lost.


In essence, the more criminals utilize the 2nd amendment for their needs, the more police have to play catch up.

Now enter the armoured van.

You can attempt to diminish the significance of that event by seeing it as a singularity or by the ridiculous assertion that the Nation Guard can mobilize fast enough to move against a moving, shooting threat with explosives and ammo at immediate hand, but the fact is that techniques in criminality are not static, but flow fluidly with the speed the technology of the times.   Especially now that the issue is not simply criminal activity in which the criminal wishes to escape, but the rise of the super ultra-libertarian who view their actions as a fight against tyranny, with nothing left to lose….

So again, as the consequences of a militarized police is discussed, some time should be spent realizing the consequences of militarized criminals.

Adam White

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Re: man attacks Dallas Police dept. with armoured van
« Reply #5 on: June 15, 2015, 01:58:51 AM »
Throughout the history of law enforcement, there are watershed moments in which equipment and tactics changes.  Being that policing is mostly reactive, many changes occur when things go horribly wrong for the police.

A bell tower in Texas changed the understanding of what one motivated, trained and mentally ill man can do.

Bank robbers in Miami (1980’s)out gunned the FBI agents which brought on the change from LEOs carrying revolvers to carrying semi-auto handguns.

Robbers in California (1990’s) outfitted with long guns and body armour ushered in the provisions for police to carry rifles.

The school shootings/mass shootings radically altered the tactics used in those circumstance with regard of time spent immobile is life lost.


In essence, the more criminals utilize the 2nd amendment for their needs, the more police have to play catch up.

Now enter the armoured van.

You can attempt to diminish the significance of that event by seeing it as a singularity or by the ridiculous assertion that the Nation Guard can mobilize fast enough to move against a moving, shooting threat with explosives and ammo at immediate hand, but the fact is that techniques in criminality are not static, but flow fluidly with the speed the technology of the times.   Especially now that the issue is not simply criminal activity in which the criminal wishes to escape, but the rise of the super ultra-libertarian who view their actions as a fight against tyranny, with nothing left to lose….

So again, as the consequences of a militarized police is discussed, some time should be spent realizing the consequences of militarized criminals.

Well, since it's possible criminals could get ahold of airplanes, maybe police forces should get SAMs.

I think the more logical approach would be to explore how things like the National Guard could be deployed and work out a process or contingency plan.

You can arm the police to their teeth to cover every possible thing that could ever happen - but the end result is that those police then use those arms in every day policing - because those fantastic scenarios never materialize.
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AKIRA

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Re: man attacks Dallas Police dept. with armoured van
« Reply #6 on: June 15, 2015, 02:24:51 AM »
"could" and "possibly" aren't the realms here... we are at "have" and "definitely".

If you believe the National Guard can quickly call in service personal, respond to their bases, gather equipment and then (this is the most troublesome part) deploy actual military hardware and tactics against American citizenry, all in a timely, efficient manner, then you have entered a fantasy land... You have basically suggested something between true Martial law and Kent State as an answer to this dilemma.


Adam White

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Re: man attacks Dallas Police dept. with armoured van
« Reply #7 on: June 15, 2015, 07:05:58 AM »
"could" and "possibly" aren't the realms here... we are at "have" and "definitely".

If you believe the National Guard can quickly call in service personal, respond to their bases, gather equipment and then (this is the most troublesome part) deploy actual military hardware and tactics against American citizenry, all in a timely, efficient manner, then you have entered a fantasy land... You have basically suggested something between true Martial law and Kent State as an answer to this dilemma.

What I am saying is that it would make more sense to look at situations that could arise (or have even arisen in the past) and see if a way to facilitate an NG response in a timely manner could be arranged. It makes more sense to have the NG deal with rogue tanks or the odd heavily-armoured truck than it does to have police departments with tanks.

I'm not saying the NG can quickly do this. I'm saying that perhaps we should explore a way to ensure they could quickly do this in the future, if the need ever arose again.

And - if I am correct - this guy was shot and killed by a sniper. No reason to have a 'militarized' police department in this case. Just like the guy in the tank in the 90s was shot by a regular cop. You seem to argue that because any kind of bad thing could happen, the police should be armed to deal with any possible scenario.

Even more worrisome is your contention that what you see as a current trend ("the rise of the super ultra-libertarian who view their actions as a fight against tyranny, with nothing left to lose") should be used as justification for arming our police with military hardware. This is the same sort of logic that the state has used to erode or curb civil liberties since time immemorial.

« Last Edit: June 15, 2015, 09:19:33 AM by Adam White »
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AKIRA

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Re: man attacks Dallas Police dept. with armoured van
« Reply #8 on: June 20, 2015, 10:08:17 PM »
Strangely enough, you are making arguments for militarized policing by referring to the successful use of snipers (who used 50 cal rifle in this situation) and pushing for the National Guard's involvement.. you can't get much more military than those two things...by definition..


Adam White

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Re: man attacks Dallas Police dept. with armoured van
« Reply #9 on: June 21, 2015, 01:38:01 AM »
Strangely enough, you are making arguments for militarized policing by referring to the successful use of snipers (who used 50 cal rifle in this situation) and pushing for the National Guard's involvement.. you can't get much more military than those two things...by definition..

I don't know what type of gun the sniper used - I'll have to take your word on that. But SWAT teams have existed for a long time - there's a difference between having a SWAT team and having your police department by lots of surplus military hardware. It's an issue of scale.

The National Guard have always been used for law enforcement during emergencies.

You're ignoring the point I have been making - which is that one incident of a guy attacking a police station is not, in my opinion, sufficient justification for the militarization (or further militarization) of police forces.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2015, 03:02:53 AM by Adam White »
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