Author Topic: Nocatee Town Center: Northeast Florida's Next Downtown?  (Read 63877 times)

Know Growth

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Re: Nocatee Town Center: Northeast Florida's Next Downtown?
« Reply #60 on: June 12, 2015, 11:08:23 PM »
Know Growth, were you loaded when you wrote those two last posts?

So glad to see anxiety

« Last Edit: June 12, 2015, 11:12:21 PM by Know Growth »

Know Growth

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Re: Nocatee Town Center: Northeast Florida's Next Downtown?
« Reply #61 on: June 12, 2015, 11:25:02 PM »
KG, I was part of the original planning and building of The Oaks.

I recall a Brannon/Chaffee Sector Plan meeting where some citizen participants declared they would support development "if it can be like Riverside and Avondale". I was thinking to myself; carve a development out of basically raw acreage,live out there......on a tiny lot?  :'(

Then they missed the mark, lol.

In fact,the Brannon Chaffee /Oakleaf future roadways, "Sector Plan" public input element was easily choreographed by the county planner, Susan Fraser, and Genesis. Genesis got tangled up nicely,later,during Lake Assbury Sector Plan Number 1 (of 2). But they prevailed,rather easily.

 Note:Susan Fraser,during her tenure as Clay County Planner during key (Oakleaf) proceedings- was a resident of Riverside Avondale,where she remains today.... 8)
She once followed the TV news cameras to my work location. So what. (and we would eventualy end up meeting in the same room joining hands over Avondale Overlay issue/Mellow Mushroom)

One Clay future Roadways meeting element process saw public participation quickly dwindle. Others public engagements easily managed.Susan Fraser represented "County Desires" well.

Susan Fraser was replaced by a person who had by then played recent key role in St Johns County Growth Booster,Consultant matters (Prosser Hollock although forgive spelling,never did get it right)
 I will never forget the blank stare and shrug when I directed a question to the Clay Commission Chairman through to the County Planner: was Lake Asbury Sector Plan (#1) in fact Authorized by DCA?

Chalk it all up to "Regional Approach".It's all related in an internecine manner.

The fact that little,if any of the Clay proceedings were 'covered' by News & Information sources will eventually become a story in itself.
Ditto St Johns/Nocatee, another chapter.

As if a Carl Hiaasen novel.

 :o ;)

Nocatee- Bold New Edge City

 Nobody here at MJ should harbor illusions of somehow controlling surrounding growth in favor of "Jacksonville"- key proceedings occurred years ago.

I see the local TV weather sections notes Nocatee on the regional map images. Prominently lodged between Jax and St Augustine.
Filled a Gap. We can't stand Gaps.
« Last Edit: June 12, 2015, 11:52:15 PM by Know Growth »

JFman00

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Re: Nocatee Town Center: Northeast Florida's Next Downtown?
« Reply #62 on: June 15, 2015, 03:35:54 PM »
Growing up in a Chicago suburb, I find it odd that the choices in the South seem to be/perceived to be:

Urban - high rises, traffic, terrible schools, cultural institutions, a la carte amenities
Suburban - single family homes, sprawl, sameness, good schools, HOA-based amenities, car is a necessity

The "suburban" SFH I grew up in was walking to a unique, medium-density, mixed-use, pedestrian-friendly, fixed-rail transit based, small-business centric downtown with a movie theater that still had an organ, fantastic schools, a community band and several community performing arts centers (not even mentioning the multitude of county institutions). No HOA fees, possible to get around without a car if you had to and so on.

I'll admit that pretty much all of St. John's County horrifies me as a bland wasteland of McMansions. However, I found living in Riverside to be more suburban than urban in my spectrum of experiences. That the Sunbelt is full of awful suburbs is because people accept awful suburbs.

Non-RedNeck Westsider

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Re: Nocatee Town Center: Northeast Florida's Next Downtown?
« Reply #63 on: June 15, 2015, 04:56:50 PM »
Another topic for another day, but I'm sick and tired of the '[insert word for bad] schools' argument.  And not that you're using it at all jf, but the general sentiment that many people express as you pointed out.

Our kids get the education from school that we, as parents, allow them to get. 
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thelakelander

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Re: Nocatee Town Center: Northeast Florida's Next Downtown?
« Reply #64 on: June 15, 2015, 08:21:46 PM »
Growing up in a Chicago suburb, I find it odd that the choices in the South seem to be/perceived to be:

Urban - high rises, traffic, terrible schools, cultural institutions, a la carte amenities
Suburban - single family homes, sprawl, sameness, good schools, HOA-based amenities, car is a necessity

The "suburban" SFH I grew up in was walking to a unique, medium-density, mixed-use, pedestrian-friendly, fixed-rail transit based, small-business centric downtown with a movie theater that still had an organ, fantastic schools, a community band and several community performing arts centers (not even mentioning the multitude of county institutions). No HOA fees, possible to get around without a car if you had to and so on.

I'll admit that pretty much all of St. John's County horrifies me as a bland wasteland of McMansions. However, I found living in Riverside to be more suburban than urban in my spectrum of experiences. That the Sunbelt is full of awful suburbs is because people accept awful suburbs.

Good post. A lot of stereotyping takes place in these types of discussions. In reality, both can offer similar sustainable amenties and environments if designed properly.
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southsider1015

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Re: Nocatee Town Center: Northeast Florida's Next Downtown?
« Reply #65 on: June 21, 2015, 01:11:28 PM »
I'm struck by how many people above think it is somehow "better" for children to be raised in an environment where they are isolated from people who different from themselves, have to be driven everywhere they might want to go and have little access to anything other than electronic-based entertainment.  To each his/her own, I suppose.

Close access to the beach, youth sports leagues, a big yard to play in, etc. is a bit more than electronic-based entertainment. And again, it's all about space. If you have 2, 3 kids, in my mind it makes no sense to live (if you have the choice) in an area in which you basically have no yard and your living space is crammed, vs an area which provides more square footage and more green space. Suburbs tend to offer the latter, and city core living does not.

And if suburbs are more homogeneous in demographics in certain areas, then so what? Will a kid who grows up in a mostly white neighborhood and is taught right vs wrong, the importance of hard work, excels in school, and then moves on into the work force be less ready for the real world than a kid who grew up in a neighborhood and school that's 30% white, 30% hispanic, 20 % black, 20% Asian and taught all the same things? Absolutely not.

This post seemed to get lost among all the negative posts.  I just wanted to see it reposted again.

And to add my two cents:

I'm white, married, with one kid, and more coming.  We both work, shes a teacher, and I'm an engineer. I live in a newer neighborhood in Southside, and we're going to be making the move to SJC in the near future.  So, we're part of this "White Flight" that this board seems to denounce.  And that's OK with us. If a little racial segregation is required for better schools and low crime, so be it.  Longer commute?  I'll take it, and in fact, I'll just avoid rush hours for my Jax commute. 

We'll trade DCPS for SJCPS as soon as possible.  Are St. Johns schools perfect? No, obviously; their problems are just different.  As another poster mentioned, it's about being in a school system where parents are involved.  As a teacher in DCPS, the stories are tragic, and these families are our neighbors!

Most of the people involved with this "White Flight" are law abiding, tax paying, families looking to keep their families strong.  Why does this concept get hated on here?  Is it possible that there might be some truth to the reasoning behind this? 

It's as if being a white, successful, friendly, and strong family here is viewed as negative. 




southsider1015

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Re: Nocatee Town Center: Northeast Florida's Next Downtown?
« Reply #66 on: June 21, 2015, 01:15:06 PM »
Know Growth, were you loaded when you wrote those two last posts?

So glad to see anxiety

I've read his posts on a variety of topics, and I feel like he has an informed opinion and years of experience in the topics that he/she discusses.

But the delivery is so poor and disconnected that the messages get quickly overlooked and often ignored.  It really can't even be considered "trolling" because most of the posts are jumbled and unorganized.

Know Growth, we all would value your opinion if we could understand you better.

Non-RedNeck Westsider

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Re: Nocatee Town Center: Northeast Florida's Next Downtown?
« Reply #67 on: June 21, 2015, 01:31:10 PM »

We'll trade DCPS for SJCPS as soon as possible.  Are St. Johns schools perfect? No, obviously; their problems are just different.  As another poster mentioned, it's about being in a school system where parents are involved.  As a teacher in DCPS, the stories are tragic, and these families are our neighbors!


I'd be interested to hear your opinion why you believe the SJCPS to be superior to the DCPS. 

What are these 'different problems'?

This is coming from the parent of a child who was accepted into Stanton (and declined), has scored 4s and 5s on all of his standardized tests and has been a student in Duval County since 1st grade:  Upson ES (1-5) Ribauult MS (6-8) and now Lee HS (9 & 10)

Edit:

I've been a step-parent to 2 children in private school (elementary) for the past 3 years and don't see any difference in education.  The differences I see are the extracurricular that the kids are exposed to on a daily basis and I would be lying to you if I told you I though that the private school education is actually better overall.  I'd describe their schooling considerably more homogeneous.

I went to a private school myself from 4-12 and didn't learn anything about 'diversity' until my freshman year at college.

Second Edit:

Mods, this may warrant being moved to an entirely different thread altogether.  Totally off topic from Nocatee.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2015, 01:38:08 PM by Non-RedNeck Westsider »
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ben america

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Re: Nocatee Town Center: Northeast Florida's Next Downtown?
« Reply #68 on: June 21, 2015, 02:38:58 PM »
"If a little racial segregation is required for better schools and low crime, so be it."

THIS is why we can't have nice things. Doubling down by isolation is what has made matters worse.

Adam White

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Re: Nocatee Town Center: Northeast Florida's Next Downtown?
« Reply #69 on: June 21, 2015, 03:24:53 PM »
Areas with a high degree of cultural and ethnic homogeniety tend to be less tolerant, in my limited experience. Recently had to move to an overwhelmingly white area in order to afford to buy a flat. Shortly thereafter, we had a national election and the racists came in second in my constituency.

Everyone out here is nice and polite - it's really a lovely area. But it seems the ones who fear 'the other' the most are the ones with the least exposure.
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Non-RedNeck Westsider

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Re: Nocatee Town Center: Northeast Florida's Next Downtown?
« Reply #70 on: June 21, 2015, 03:32:09 PM »
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/06/20/dylann-roof-manifesto-charleston-shooting_n_7627788.html

Quote
Now White parents are forced to move to the suburbs to send their children to “good schools”. But what constitutes a “good school”? The fact is that how good a school is considered directly corresponds to how White it is. I hate with a passion the whole idea of the suburbs. To me it represents nothing but scared White people running. Running because they are too weak, scared, and brainwashed to fight. Why should we have to flee the cities we created for the security of the suburbs? Why are the suburbs secure in the first place? Because they are White. The pathetic part is that these White people dont even admit to themselves why they are moving. They tell themselves it is for better schools or simply to live in a nicer neighborhood

Lemme clarify my statement a bit.

Our kids get the education from school that we, as parents, allow them to get.

Keep moving them around to 'protect' them, and they'll learn that racism classism segregation is the way to handle life.
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Tacachale

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Re: Nocatee Town Center: Northeast Florida's Next Downtown?
« Reply #71 on: June 21, 2015, 03:55:17 PM »
I'm struck by how many people above think it is somehow "better" for children to be raised in an environment where they are isolated from people who different from themselves, have to be driven everywhere they might want to go and have little access to anything other than electronic-based entertainment.  To each his/her own, I suppose.

Close access to the beach, youth sports leagues, a big yard to play in, etc. is a bit more than electronic-based entertainment. And again, it's all about space. If you have 2, 3 kids, in my mind it makes no sense to live (if you have the choice) in an area in which you basically have no yard and your living space is crammed, vs an area which provides more square footage and more green space. Suburbs tend to offer the latter, and city core living does not.

And if suburbs are more homogeneous in demographics in certain areas, then so what? Will a kid who grows up in a mostly white neighborhood and is taught right vs wrong, the importance of hard work, excels in school, and then moves on into the work force be less ready for the real world than a kid who grew up in a neighborhood and school that's 30% white, 30% hispanic, 20 % black, 20% Asian and taught all the same things? Absolutely not.

This post seemed to get lost among all the negative posts.  I just wanted to see it reposted again.

And to add my two cents:

I'm white, married, with one kid, and more coming.  We both work, shes a teacher, and I'm an engineer. I live in a newer neighborhood in Southside, and we're going to be making the move to SJC in the near future.  So, we're part of this "White Flight" that this board seems to denounce.  And that's OK with us. If a little racial segregation is required for better schools and low crime, so be it.  Longer commute?  I'll take it, and in fact, I'll just avoid rush hours for my Jax commute. 

We'll trade DCPS for SJCPS as soon as possible.  Are St. Johns schools perfect? No, obviously; their problems are just different.  As another poster mentioned, it's about being in a school system where parents are involved.  As a teacher in DCPS, the stories are tragic, and these families are our neighbors!

Most of the people involved with this "White Flight" are law abiding, tax paying, families looking to keep their families strong.  Why does this concept get hated on here?  Is it possible that there might be some truth to the reasoning behind this? 

It's as if being a white, successful, friendly, and strong family here is viewed as negative.

You're conflating two things: being "a white, successful, friendly, and strong family", and living a suburban lifestyle. Neither of those things is dependent on the other. No one considers it negative to be white or successful or to have the impulse to have a strong, safe family environment.

There are plenty of people who consider the suburban lifestyle (or parts of it) to be negative. But not all the criticisms are the same. To me, and a number of others on this forum, the issue isn't the suburbs or even White Flight, per say. I don't care where other people live. If you want to live in the suburbs, have at it. My problem is when our communities and governments focus on developing those great suburbs while neglecting or even disadvantaging other parts of town and the health of the overall metropolis.

For instance, in another thread you were advocating the First Coast Expressway. This is a project that may make it a bit easier for suburbanites to get around, and will open up new land for suburban development. We always seem to have hundreds of millions of dollars  for projects like that, but we can't scrape two nickels together to fix our urban infrastructure and keep chunks of Downtown from falling into the river. In other words, our state and local governments continue to subsidize suburban development but struggle even with simple upkeep of our urban areas.
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Adam White

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Re: Nocatee Town Center: Northeast Florida's Next Downtown?
« Reply #72 on: June 21, 2015, 03:58:37 PM »
^Well said.
“If you're going to play it out of tune, then play it out of tune properly.”

southsider1015

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Re: Nocatee Town Center: Northeast Florida's Next Downtown?
« Reply #73 on: June 21, 2015, 05:03:04 PM »
I'm struck by how many people above think it is somehow "better" for children to be raised in an environment where they are isolated from people who different from themselves, have to be driven everywhere they might want to go and have little access to anything other than electronic-based entertainment.  To each his/her own, I suppose.

Close access to the beach, youth sports leagues, a big yard to play in, etc. is a bit more than electronic-based entertainment. And again, it's all about space. If you have 2, 3 kids, in my mind it makes no sense to live (if you have the choice) in an area in which you basically have no yard and your living space is crammed, vs an area which provides more square footage and more green space. Suburbs tend to offer the latter, and city core living does not.

And if suburbs are more homogeneous in demographics in certain areas, then so what? Will a kid who grows up in a mostly white neighborhood and is taught right vs wrong, the importance of hard work, excels in school, and then moves on into the work force be less ready for the real world than a kid who grew up in a neighborhood and school that's 30% white, 30% hispanic, 20 % black, 20% Asian and taught all the same things? Absolutely not.

This post seemed to get lost among all the negative posts.  I just wanted to see it reposted again.

And to add my two cents:

I'm white, married, with one kid, and more coming.  We both work, shes a teacher, and I'm an engineer. I live in a newer neighborhood in Southside, and we're going to be making the move to SJC in the near future.  So, we're part of this "White Flight" that this board seems to denounce.  And that's OK with us. If a little racial segregation is required for better schools and low crime, so be it.  Longer commute?  I'll take it, and in fact, I'll just avoid rush hours for my Jax commute. 

We'll trade DCPS for SJCPS as soon as possible.  Are St. Johns schools perfect? No, obviously; their problems are just different.  As another poster mentioned, it's about being in a school system where parents are involved.  As a teacher in DCPS, the stories are tragic, and these families are our neighbors!

Most of the people involved with this "White Flight" are law abiding, tax paying, families looking to keep their families strong.  Why does this concept get hated on here?  Is it possible that there might be some truth to the reasoning behind this? 

It's as if being a white, successful, friendly, and strong family here is viewed as negative.

You're conflating two things: being "a white, successful, friendly, and strong family", and living a suburban lifestyle. Neither of those things is dependent on the other. No one considers it negative to be white or successful or to have the impulse to have a strong, safe family environment.

There are plenty of people who consider the suburban lifestyle (or parts of it) to be negative. But not all the criticisms are the same. To me, and a number of others on this forum, the issue isn't the suburbs or even White Flight, per say. I don't care where other people live. If you want to live in the suburbs, have at it. My problem is when our communities and governments focus on developing those great suburbs while neglecting or even disadvantaging other parts of town and the health of the overall metropolis.

For instance, in another thread you were advocating the First Coast Expressway. This is a project that may make it a bit easier for suburbanites to get around, and will open up new land for suburban development. We always seem to have hundreds of millions of dollars  for projects like that, but we can't scrape two nickels together to fix our urban infrastructure and keep chunks of Downtown from falling into the river. In other words, our state and local governments continue to subsidize suburban development but struggle even with simple upkeep of our urban areas.

I'm only conflating the two topics because I believe that there might a strong correlation between the two in the case of why White people might be moving to St. Johns County.  Why do White people believe life is better in suburbia in NE Florida? 

Regarding funding:

As MANY tend to do, you're confusing different levels of government and different pots of money.  The State of Florida (FDOT, in this case) and the City of Jacksonville.  Different entities, different leadership, different revenue sources.   If urban infrastructure needs more funding (which I agree certainly does), then that's on COJ, not necessarily the state. I do want to point out that FDOT IS funding urban infrastructure within the urban area:  Overland Bridge Project, and I-10/I-95 Operational Improvements Project.  Both projects are increasing capacity through the urban/downtown area.

Can the state help out COJ with funding?  Absolutely, in the form of grants and other types of beneficial monies.  Why isn't that happening?  What about a growth management plan and supporting land development policies that ACTUALLY encourage urban growth?  Or, a Public Works Department and JTA that are well-funded, and can maintain urban infrastructure?   What about functional local government led by a mayor that can actually govern, raise taxes, set budgets, etc. ?

southsider1015

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Re: Nocatee Town Center: Northeast Florida's Next Downtown?
« Reply #74 on: June 21, 2015, 05:15:34 PM »

We'll trade DCPS for SJCPS as soon as possible.  Are St. Johns schools perfect? No, obviously; their problems are just different.  As another poster mentioned, it's about being in a school system where parents are involved.  As a teacher in DCPS, the stories are tragic, and these families are our neighbors!


I'd be interested to hear your opinion why you believe the SJCPS to be superior to the DCPS. 

What are these 'different problems'?

This is coming from the parent of a child who was accepted into Stanton (and declined), has scored 4s and 5s on all of his standardized tests and has been a student in Duval County since 1st grade:  Upson ES (1-5) Ribauult MS (6-8) and now Lee HS (9 & 10)

Edit:

I've been a step-parent to 2 children in private school (elementary) for the past 3 years and don't see any difference in education.  The differences I see are the extracurricular that the kids are exposed to on a daily basis and I would be lying to you if I told you I though that the private school education is actually better overall.  I'd describe their schooling considerably more homogeneous.

I went to a private school myself from 4-12 and didn't learn anything about 'diversity' until my freshman year at college.

Second Edit:

Mods, this may warrant being moved to an entirely different thread altogether.  Totally off topic from Nocatee.

First and foremost, it's the students and supportive families.  Any and all other reasons about why SJCSD (needed to correct myself) continually outperforms DCPS are tied to this.  A typical problem is unsupportive families, malnutrition, single-parent families, etc. I don't pretend to know all, because I don't.  But I do have SOME insight to why the DCPS school system is not succeeding.  I agree, a but off topic from Nocatee.